Suspension Examination:
 

After getting my suspension revalved by a tuner (and being happy with it) I was disappointed to find everything seemed to be softening up. My thoughts are its a combo of things
A) I got the suspension revalved when the bike was brand new, now everything is bed in there is a lot less friction and this has caused everything to become softer.
B) IMO I am riding quicker on this new bike, whether it's the bike itself or the suspension that have given me more confidence I don't know.

I am going to speak with the tuner and see if I can get it tweaked again to firm it up where it needs firming up, to make sure I was accurately reporting what the bike was doing I took this video:
http://youtu.be/sDPESqTMKUA

So my thoughts are that LSC front and rear is on the soft side. The g-outs I'm hitting are pretty intense and I'd expect the suspension to bottom on these but GENTLY. At the moment the sound of the front forks smashing into the bottoming cone and the tyre hitting the front guard isn't pleasant. I'm 3clicks out on LSC clickers so it's definitely the valving.
The shock is the same although not as bad, I don't know if I'd want it firmed up at the moment as it does squat and grip really well on hills etc plus I think I am still about 10 clicks out on LSC which is just under halfway out (total of 26 clicks)

Rebound is fine both ends, no pogoing or pushing and both ends stick like glue to the terrain even when riding off camber bumpy rocks. I will check the forks though as I think I'm in a fair way on the reb clicker to get it behaving this way.

HSC I'm not too sure with the forks, I suspect they could use firming up a tiny amount, I can feel them blow through the stroke on occasions instead of firming up. The rear i initially thought was too soft and it was blowing through then bouncing back of the bump stop but looking at the video it's just firming up and not moving past 3/4 travel. It'd be nice if the reiger shock had a HSC clicker as I could probably tune the spike out with that clicker...

Nath,
I cannot remember who you sent yours to to get done but you know who I used and mine was sent back really soft .
So soft in fact that the tuner I now use , swapped the single stage, 9 shim??? stack , (compression), for a dual stage stack.
He used the basic stack as a start and kept the initial plushness and then upped the second stage by about 120% to what it was.
Forks now eat anything I can throw at them and work really well in sand and loamy stuff. Rode a muddy mx track last weekend and it was great but was slightly stiff and ever so slightly jarring on stutters, but that is to be expected as I have not changed the setup at all since Finke and Hattah:D.
Overall I am very pleased.
Your shock looked ok to me and I do remember my tuner saying that both compression and rebound are intertwined.
I also have had my shock upgraded, mine is an Ohlins 888.
Cheers Mark

I used the same tuner you did initially mate ;-)
Like I said at the start I was really pleased but now I find it all to be a bit soft. I'll be attempting to speak with him today and see if I can have it fixed up without costing me too much money.

How did you go?
One good thing about him is that he said he would gladly fix the problem no charge. If you are close you probably won't have a problem.
I took mine to the new tuner twice with the forks to get the 100% correct.
Trial and error unfortunately if you are picky or know how it should feel.
Cheers Mark

Less then ideal, he said he will fix it, however as it has been so long (only 6 months or so and approx 20 hrs) he feels the goal posts have moved from where I wanted them 6 months ago as I'm getting quicker and have reached the limits of the revalved suspension - his words not mine. He will come to an agreement with me where I pay labour and parts to get them re-valved again. In short he'll give me a discount so I'm not paying full freight for a revalve again. :roll eyes:

Needless to say I'm not really happy with this outcome, I spent close to $800 with him the first time, spending any more then a few $ for more shims and $50 for oil/gas is out of the question.
However I can see where he is coming from. Initially I was very happy with the revalved suspension, it was perfect. However a combination of the brand new suspension breaking in (it was only 4hrs old when I had them done) and the fact that IMO I am getting quicker and more confident and pushing the suspension to a level I couldn't previously has unfortunately led me to my current pickle.

So tonight I pulled the forks down myself, and tomorrow, armed with the shim stacks he installed and the above video I'll go out and see him and ask him to do a revalve on paper for me, I'll buy shims and oil through him so he'll still be getting some $. I hope he agrees with this, otherwise I'm going to be very disappointed as I was led to believe (based on his words) that he was a good honest man to deal with.

Stay tuned...

Nate: Sorry to hear about your quandry, but you've brought up a couple points that guys should be aware of (as you now are).

1) Revalving brand new suspension can lead to a number of issues down the road. As you've mentioned the base components (seals, bushings etc) aren't broken in, and as a result their contribution to overall performance is still changing. Expect softer and plusher with time, leveling out about 10 hours.
2) Unless you've just bought a replacement bike for one you know intimately, at 4 hours you're likely not completely dialed in on what you want the suspension to do either (and it's giving a false reading because of lack of break-in). The PFP forks in particular feel firmer than others, but if you go softer to match feel you lose the performance they are capable of.
3) Good suspension *should* make you a better/faster/more confident rider. That usually means that you're hitting stuff faster/harder/differently than you would have previously, or even tackling more challenging terrain. Depending on where you are in the tuning window, that may require some more work to match your new riding prowess.

It's not much help to you, but I typically have my guys re-spring (if necessary) straight away, but discourage them from re-valving until the suspension is broken in(+) and they have a good feel for the bike. Then we'll re-valve and I keep working with them on clicker settings as long as they've got the bike.

+ if you've gone up more than a couple spring rates I'll do valving straight out of the box, or do fixes that I know work on a particular brand of suspension for riders of similar style and ability

Good luck Nath.;)

Steve, you've hit the nail on the head with your post. I should have just installed the heavier springs and ridden it until the suspension had broken in. Main reason I didn't is I had the money sitting there to pay for the revalve and had permission from the wife to do it - so i did it ASAP before she changed her mind :D

The other thing is as mentioned in point 3 I do consider myself to be a faster more confident rider now. I'm not bagging the tuner in this thread, initially he did a great job and I couldn't have been happier with the work done.

I was a tad disappointed when initially told I would have to pay for a service front and rear (total of approx $400!) during which he would revalve the stacks, however I've now realised it was because I was speaking with his son (a royal douche IMO). When I spoke with the actual tuner I was told we could work something out, but I would at least be covering labour involved in pulling down and putting back together the suspension. Fair enough.

I went one better and pulled down the forks myself, and today I went in to his workshop with the stacks recorded on paper. After showing him the video and then the recorded stacks and clarifying I wanted to firm it up a tad he supplied me with new shims and told me where to put them in the stacks. Couldn't have asked for a better solution IMO.

Now to install the new stacks and see what happens.

Also I've left the rear alone for now. I am smack in the middle of the clicker range for rebound and 10 out of 26 on LSC. So first ill wind in some LSC and see of that helps it sit up in the stroke a bit more.
I'm also wondering if a heavier spring may help, currently running a 6.0 and with 13mm preload I get static sag of 25mm and race sag of 98mm. The bike turns like its on rails so I don't want to alter race sag, it's also pretty plush and compliant so the smallish static sag doesn't seem to be a problem. Dunno what do you people think, would a rate (or two) on the rear help keep it sitting up a bit higher? Or should I not waste money and address it through valving/clickers instead?

Nath,
I too got no where with his peanut son. It was not until I actually got to talk to him that things happened.
They did not send the old valves back and his son said they would be lost by now???
Spoke to him and he posted them to me , no questions asked.
He really needs to teach that kid some customer service skills.
Glad to hear it worked out mate.
Cheers Mark

Funny isn't it, I've never heard anyone say a good thing about dealing with the son, but everyone always seems to be happy with the dealings with the main man.

The young bloke sent me out a needle seat and retainer for a kyb shaft they sold me which they forgot to send the bits with, then he even walked me through the easiest way to install and ensure the correct range of adj was available.

The lady on the phone on the other hand.. :rolleyes:

I pity the future of the place?:confused:

Yep, the boss at you know where is definately the engine, my wife and I went down there last Tuesday to get the bush lands machined and the shock revalved, the main man said over the phone we were the first booking so it'll be about an hour and a half, on arrival son dealt with us (doesn't have a nice way) and told us to come back at 3 (4 hr wait) dad overheard it and said it will be done first then took my wife off to see their new Rottweiler puppies and blabbed on to me about exactly what the problem with gasser valving is for 20 mins in a complete customer service recovery. He knows he's got a problem, you can feel the tension. They are setting up a full bike service division which the son will run as we speak......

Ps the shock is great details when I've given it a proper ride, I've done a lot of valving on the forks too, based on the beta valving..

I'd like to have the bushlands machined down on mine too, but obviously too far to travel for me to drop in ;)

You can definately feel the difference, plus what glen has gone through on his beta scared me.

Oath. I've kept in contact with Glenn and it has spooked me a little to say the least. Especially when last service I found considerable contamination in one cart. I'd dropped it into the other leg since to try and isolate the source of it as there were no visual indicators or anything that could be felt on inspection. New springs went in so I'm hoping it was just that.

I reckon he did mine when he had it . He also crosshatched the tubes .
Cheers Mark

Been one of his standard mods to the Marzocchis since forever. If you look at the bushland on a KYB you'll see they already come like this. I'd like to have my forks linished as well. Building a case to buy a lathe I think!!

He also does it to Sachs forks.
And like Simmo said its night and day difference just that mod alone.

I had to go back out and see him today, the shims he have me were 6mm ID... No dramas new 8mm ID shims swapped over.

While I was there I spoke to him about the shock and showed him the rest of the video. He is of the opinion that the LSC is a bit soft causing it to ride low in the stroke, any HSC impacts during this causes it to blow through and hit the bump stop causing the kick in the pants I've been getting.
His recommendation was to add a few clicks of LSC and see how it goes which was my plan anyway.
But since I was there I got curious and asked about the rear spring, currently with a 6.0 and 13mm preload I end up with 25mm static/98mm race. He advised that I could continue to use the current spring, however ideally going up a rate or two would benefit me as it would encourage the rear to sit up and the stroke and I'd be able to keep the LSC clickers where they are. He must of felt sorry for me because he gave me a great discount on a new 6.4 spring. I guess this means I'm now officially a fat arse :D

It'll be interesting to see how you go. You may find jumping up the rear spring that it will ride up in the stroke nicer and be more plush in the initial stroke. It might ramp up a bit too fast and exacerbate the fork issues you had. Thats a really considerable jump up from stock in the back end in comparison to the front. Seat time will tell though.

True, I was a bit worried about it but was told so long as I make sure the race sag with the new spring is the same it shouldn't unbalance the bike. One thing is for sure it should make it obvious if my HSC issue was due to it being too firm or too soft.

One thing I have noticed is that on my '11 the 6.0 rear was perfect, 9mm preload was 32mm static and 100mm race whereas on the the '14 it seems its at least one rate, possibly two rates too soft. The tuner commented that whatever chassis/linkage/swingarm changes took place for '14 have caused more weight to be placed on the spring, hence a firmer spring is required on the '14 chassis.

Plus I still have the .50 fork springs sitting here, if the 6.4 rear upsets front/rear balance I can step up to the .50's, they were too stiff for use with the 6.0 rear, but may be ok with the 6.4.

Ah suspension, so much fun to get right.

Its all trial and error and getting everything to work together.

Its odd that you mention your 2011 chasis preffered lighter springs. On my 2010 I favoured .46 fork springs and a 5.6 rear, yet the best I've found on the new chasis is the .44 and 5.2 shock. I think a 5.4 will work with some damping adjustments. The 2010 shock had a fair amount of work.

One thing for sure is that the new chasis responds much better to less race sag. 98mm feels magic on it, where the older chasis felt best to me around the 105mm range.

I wish I stepped my fork springs up one more size as it feels like once they have settled in tjey are not much better than standard?

forgive my ignorance, but what is a bushlands (is it ozzie for something the rest of the world calls by its propper name ;-))

Its the clearance where the bushing floats. So on the lower legs, there is a groove machined into the leg where the inner bushing locates. Not enough clearance and the bushing can bind up when the fork leg flexes.

As Jake said, what the tuner we are referring to does is machine the outer edges of the bushing land on the inner tube, he effectively rounds them off a bit so that when that bushing travels past the bottom triples it can move/twist a bit and won't bind up.
See the attached (crappy hand drawn) picture. The dark shades areas are what he would machine in.
Attachment 4735

This is what if did to my forks after a few revalves it's pretty close to stock beta

I followed leons ( used to be here but bought a beta) thread on betariders.

I think the beta red legs may have a different mv gap....Steve?

Inners have been bushing land machined.

No bottoming for me with this but any less than 350cc will have you running close, 330 and it's clank!

Reb
12.15
20.1(3)
17.1
14.15
11.2(2)

Mid
12.15
20.1(4)
11.2
15.15
16.15
18.15

(May end up less float but currently like it)

Base
28.1
12.1
32.15(2)
32.1(4)
14.1
24.1
22.1
20.1
18.1
10.2(2)

Will be adding 32.1

.48 spring and 5.8 rear.

350cc maxima 7wt racing ff comp6 reb 15 .75 turn pfp

I've gone away from winding in the reb till just b4 packing, I like less rebound now that the back has less lsr, and you can run more comp without harshness.

This is the Leon thread.

http://www.betarider.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=144

I thought that the beta being heavier and a 4t that it would work well with my weight, springs and Leon has ridden a lot of good suspension is I would trust his judgement, as well as NP on Dbw whom rates the beta valving.

Hmm interesting, your rebound stack is a lot lighter then mine, MV is similar but the BV seems to be stiffer and with less bleed (mine still runs a 12.1 bleed shim).

My forks went back together on the weekend, used Jakes method of bleeding/filling them (seems surprisingly easy, when reading Jakes write-up I was thinking it would be simialar to brain surgery :D ) I still doubt I got a perfect bleed, however there will be a lot less air in there compared to when the tuner did it last time.

I also put 350ml of oil in the outers, tuner put in 330ml last time, having said that 50ml had disappeared, only 275ml came back out from each :rolleyes:

Just have to wait on the head to get back from being re-machined and button it all back together and I'll go test it out to see the results.

Yeah I went into some depth writing but when actually doing the work its a piece of pie. The more times you can flip the cart and then get a small purge the better. The air hides around the outer edge of the piston. Its a poor design.

On the mid I'I've been running this

MV Comp (from piston)
12x.10 - Bleed
20x.10 (3)
18x.1
16x.1
14x.1
12x.1
11x.20 (2)
15x.15
16x.15
0.4mm float

Rebound (from piston)
20x.10 (2)
12x.10 - bleed moved down to crossover
20x.10
18x.10
16x.10
14x.10
12x.10 - from BV
11x 2.5 - collar

I'm thinking of addressing a few things on the rebound, and possibly opening up the float. I may pull the 12x.1 from the bottom of the comp stack and then slide it over as a bleed on the rebound. Or maybe I'll pull the 12 from the bottom of the rebound, move it to the bleed, and then drop a 14x.2 in at the bottom of the rebound to beef up the HSR substantially.

I'll have to do some more thinking before anythings in stone though. Still got 15 hrs before its due for its next service so will hold out till then.

Another point of interest, Simmo have you measured your ics spring? Mine is a different length to Jakes (same length as Natos??).
Can't remember how that affects things though? Jake help a brother out? :D

I can't remember the length of mine, but maybe they are similar? I think 107mm rings a bell. I think you said yours were 100mm but I don't know how you accurately measured them if you didnt disassemble the ICS?

The PFP adj changes the preload on the spring, as does the length of the spring. The PFP has a range of around 10mm approx, and we all know what effect even a half a turn has on the fork action. Imagine the difference in feel between a spring of the same rate that has 7mm difference.

This time round I accurately measured them. They are 100mm. I pulled the pfp assembly apart to clean all the grease out of the comp clicker assembly.

I wish I could remember the length of mine. I'll check my notes in the morning. I may have wrote it down.

Based on my measurements the ICS spring rate is about 2.0 kg/mm.
Sound right?

ahh ok. so these are not like the sachs that rattle around in the tubes!?

Affirmative. Stock ICS is 2.0kg/mm - Nato had after market 1.8kg/mm installed with his. His BV was much firmer though.

Not at all. It still blows me away how much movement there is between the upper and lower on the Sachs, but with well over 300hrs on mine they have held up really well (with TTX carts). I installed them on the new bike for a ride early in the pic too. Could very happily run them on this bike.

Checked my notes tonight and I didn't document the length of the ICS spring! I should have wrote it down. I found some notes which I believe were the dimensions of Natos. His definitely floated around much more than mine. For some reason 107mm keeps popping to mind.

on the zokes I had down from the 13 model, 107mm was indeed the length of the ICS spring