yet another no idle thread.
 

2001 ec300
#7 slide
45 pilot
a/s somewhere between 2 and 2.5 turns out.
175 main
ddk needle on #2
float is adjusted properly


bike runs great pulls hard and relatively smooth.

carb is clean

but:
sounds like it's 4 stroking at 1/8 throttle.
bike will not idle. zips up and down through the rev range pretty clean, but dies instantly when i shut the throttle
idle screw has no effect.
air screw has little to no effect. i can't get it to idle to adjust airscrew. i hold throttle at 1/16 or so, and i turn airscrew till 4 stroking is minimized.

bike used to idle when it was about 30 degrees cooler.... it would at least idle for 20 seconds or so, then die off. now it just dies instantly.

since it's warmer, i've tried 42 pilot and moving needle up and down (it runs slightly better with needle at position 1...but still no idle.) and 172 main. still no idle (and bike wasn't as strong all around...). i don't want to go bigger on the pilot (48), because i think it will 4 stroke more most likely?

so i assume have 2 choices:
different needle
different slide. - now i've tried a leaner slide in the past on my 200, but i didn't like the effect. plus needles are cheaper :)

so, any suggestions as to needles that may solve my dilemma? i'vew plugged lotsa things into jd jetting chart, and it seems ddl might be the solution. slightly leaner to 1/4 throttle..

Slide for sure, then tune the needle.

my 01 300 is 42p, 7 slide, 172 main (i think.. sorry... dont remember for sure) cck needle on #2 position.. 2 ish turns out also... depending on the day..
we are about 3500', but our "corrected air" depending on the day can be over 5000.. mine idles fine..

last time i tried a leaner slide (on a 200 - went from #5 to #7) - i ended up losing all the grunt. it revved out, and idled pretty well, but had no balls down low. so i'm a little tentative... maybe i didn't go rich enough on the needle... should i just go to #8 slide?? i hate buying slides that end up being useless....

i plugged your numbers in - you are 20% richer at 1/4 throttle. corrected for elevation... i'm at 1000 feet.

to duplicate you i would need to go 45/175/#3

i've tried that - no idle. the only way to get it to idle is adjusting it at the throttle.

i can adjust/hear the slide hitting the plastic idle screw, so i know it's lifting it......i've turned it all the way out and slowly turned it in hoping to hear it start climbing, but it never does..even bottomed all the way out...

wow... mine has always had the best idle... sounds like a sewing machine.. hope you get it ..

i forgot to mention - 200+ psi compression - .15 base gasket. pings on anything but minimum 50/50 110/93... timing is retarded 1 degree.

airfilter is dirty - gonna change that out and see if it helps. i've gotta check the reeds too....

+1 on checking the reeds.

sounds like a warn out slide orifice to me.

i tore it all apart again this morning.

slide and carb looks good.
double checked all passages in carb. no blockage in idle/pilot circuit.
double checked float height - it's at 16mm
pulled reeds, looked fine - they are carbon fiber ones if that makes a difference..
airfilter is clean.

to double check a/s circuitry i rode around with a/s at 0 turns. it works. i reset at 1.75 turns out.

investigated how far the slide moves up and down in relation to idle screw. with an unmodified idle screw/spring the idle screw hits the slide at 6 turns out. it should idle at around 2 - 4.5 turns out.

still no idle. i can only get it to idle by adjusting either throttle adjuster. i know by looking at how high the slide is at that point that i'm probably bypassing the pilot circuit completely.

bike pulls smooth and even and as close to perfect as it's been with the settings it has now. pulls front end up easily with no clutch in first 3 gears. no stuttering, no hesitation. instant power at all throttle openings - very strong at 1/8-1/4 throttle where you're just zipping through the woods.
bike starts first kick hot or cold (choke for cold for just a second or 2.. BUT it used to race like crazy if i left the choke on for more than a second. now it doesnt. it just makes throttle response and exhaust note dull...i'm assuming this is a clue.....) i swapped to another choke assembly, but no change.

i had a spare #7 slide with a notch in it. (the one i was running had no notch) - neither slide had any noticeable difference.

so do i get a slide cut to #8 or should i be looking elsewhere? or go to a 40 pilot and see what it does? 40 pilot seems like i would be getting pretty lean... jetting dbase doesn't show anyone with ddk/40/172/#7 - but there are some leaner, but with different needle....

i've been dinking around so much with this carb, it's given me a chance to completely rejet...so i'm really happy with it (no 4 stroking at the bottom, pulls hard,etc. but still no idle.)

172, 42, ddk #2, 1.5 turns out. 80 degrees, 1000ft. #7 slide (notched)

Next would be #8 slide, or for a cheaper attempt, a needle with a leaner straight diameter. All indications are your too rich in this area. There is enough 300 jetting data here to make your head spin.

FYI- I was totally happy with my jetting. It never idled though. After the RB designs mod it does and it pulls harder.

yep, i could go to 40 pilot, but i think that's masking the issue, and perhaps too lean somewhere?

i don't any other reason it doesn't idle anymore. the temps went way up, and my jetting became rich, so i leaned and it runs great but will not idle. it would idle with my previous settings when the weather was cooler. but the 30 degree temp rise made that jetting useless (and it won't idle with that jetting now..)


i've got a spare slide i'm planning on sending out, hopefully that will solve the problem. if not i don't know where to look.


leaner straight diameter would mean thicker needle. so ddl or ddm. i guess i'll order one or both and see what they do..

tried 40 pilot. still no idle. it's basically like the idle screw and the air screw have almost no effect.

this kinda tells me something else is going on. i think i have a spare pwk 38 maybe a carb swap is in order.... if that don't fix it maybe my ignition is weak??? i would doubt that.....

i also ordered new reeds for the hell of it. i know they're gonna go eventually, so i'm just gonna put new ones in.

I think one of the previous posters here meant the needle orifice - and that is my thought too. The "nozzle" will oval over time from engine vibes.... Given that the bike is a 2001 - this is probably the problem.

No replacement available from keihin...

RB Designs machines new one and will replace it - but this may only be included in his complete carb mod...

jeff

yeah, i was kinda thinking that it might be the issue, since i've went through everything else. i'm going to swap a different carb in and see - then at least i can narrow things down to carb body issue..

Have you thrown in a new plug just for kicks? What does it look like right after it dies? I agree it sounds like you are very rich here for some reason.

Carb mod or squish band . . . or both?

Look at the bright side, most bikes don't last long enough to wear out the carb body. (if that's what it turns out to be)

it isn't carb body. switched carbs and same no idle. it doesn't even putt putt die. when i shut the throttle rpm's just drop straight to zero. this makes me think it's spark related. i've done quite a few changes carburetion wise - and none had any effect at say under 2000 rpm.

even though they are 'identical' carbs, the bike runs better on the first carb...this carb sounds rich all over. kinda dull exhaust note, and almost like it's loading up. not snappy like the other carb with the same jets, float, bowl, slide, needle etc.

i've switched plugs several times. i'm outta fresh plugs now. i gotta get some more. on the ceramic - plugs are dark on one side, and white on the other - not running 'em long enough to get any kind of reading.


i'm starting to think this is maybe an electrical issue. maybe i jumped into the carb too soon - i though the warm weather was the problem - and maybe it's not. maybe the coil is weak, or something going on with the stator. i'm gonna swap them out tomorrow and see what happens..

If it starts easy enough, especially when hot, and runs good through the range, I doubt its electrical. Still doesn't hurt to freshen up the coil HV wire connection though.

Do you have any needle with a leaner diameter in your collection? Forget taper structure for this experiment, you just want to see if you can lean that range and allow somewhat of an idle without jacking the slide up with the screw.

In addition to stator and coil I'd check the cable and plug cap to make sure you don't have a gap or some cooked copper it's having difficulty jumping at the union.

check your reeds, mine were open...

unfortunately i only have a ddk and 2 n1ed :(

reeds were checked - they were not bad - the top reeds were perfect, the lower reeds had some minor deformation, but were still sealing. - i'm replacing them anyway - waiting for them to show up..

Just the carb mod.

ok, so swapped carb back.

now it's 40/172/#7/2.5 turns out/ddk

still runs great at all throttle postions. it's just barely starting to idle....but the idle screw is all the way in.. it's got a pretty big hit at the bottom.. definitely lofts the wheel at anything more than a gentle throttle roll-on

i went back and looked at what the carb for this 300 motor had in when i got it. it was: (i don't know what stock jetting was - this was what was in the bike...) n1ed, 35, and 185 (and if i remember correctly it was quite violent off the bottom..)- i believe n1ed is 2.685 diameter (anyone know the n1ed dimensions???) - it ran fine with that combo, but was rich at the top. . ddk is 2.695 - i can't get n1ed to work in jd jetting chart. so would a 38 pilot compensate for the needle difference? i find it hard to believe that a 38 pilot is needed - it seems lean to me. but it is 80+ degrees here..and 1000' elevation.

it's pretty impossible to get a plug reading for the pilot..

anyone?

stainless.. when i got my 01 i am almost 100% sure it had a 38 pilot in it.. will check tonight and let you know if i still have it.. Les told me that was oe jetted in 01...

Just for comparison my dealer had been jetting his bikes with a 35p on the n1ef needle on clip #2, 178m - #7 slide. It was blubbering down low and onto the needle when I got it home and tested it. Only 1/2-top end seemed on. 60F /300ft when I was testing that combo.

As a comparison here is what Jim Senecal was running in his 2010 XC250 with 38mm ASII carb last year (NETRA HS Champion)
#7 slide
178 main
40 pilot
N1EF needle 1st clip (top)
a/s 1 out

thanks! this was a 99 ec300. if anyone knows what stock jetting was back then...

- i have all pilots from 35-50.. and all jets from 165-185 - i realy need to get some needles...

You can't compensate for a rich needle straight diameter with a leaner pilot. yes, they overlap some but not to the point of making the pilot change an alternative.

The 250s are different and generally easier to jet than 300s.

For years all GGs came jetted with 38 pilots and N1E* series needles(plus a couple extras with the bike), I have a bag of them. I have a good selection of needles, I'll see if there is anything in my collection that may be usefull to you.

Honestly, if I get a 300, the first two things I'll do is send out the head and correct the squish, and line up a leaner slide. If a #7 works so well in a 250 that is easy to jet (it does and is), my feeling is that it is leaning rich in a 300, especially over sea level and/or now that summer is almost here. I went through this same excersise on my '03 250 that came with a #6 for some reason, as well as my KTM300 as I mentioned before.

Stainless I'll get back to you on the needles.

You and others have got me tempted about sending my head to RB. I need to keep playing around and see where I get and at least break this thing in, but there is something more finicky about this setup than I have experienced . . . discounting the BST on my LC4 of course. How much are slides anyway?

bst's are impossible. i switch to fcr and have better luck.

slides are around $55.. rb cuts them for $15 + shipping.

Its a known fact that GGs like most 2-strokes have loose squish numbers by design to account for questionable fuel around the world. Husky and KTM are no different, have done RBD head mods on them too for my brother and friends. Add this to the fact that bigger 2-strokes are always harder to jet. I just factor all this into the cost of the bike and get it done, then go ride. Just like suspension. You could go all the way and get the carb modded (including a slide cut) as well, very good reviews on that. I'd try the slide first though. I'm sure you could find a used #6 or #7 cheap and have it cut, keeping your original.

Stainless,

I have a few needles with leaner straight sections for you to try:

N1EG - one leaner (2.71mm straight dia) than the N1EF

JD Red - from the generic PWK 38 AS kit. 2.72mm straight dia. This is a bit lean in the 250, may work good in the 300.

1369MS - 2.70mm straight dia. This is very much like a CCK with another shallow taper cut after the straight section. Straight dia is the same as a DDK so it probably won't help but you wanted to try a CCK regardless. This was the OEM needle in older Honda CR250s before they went to the Mikuni carb.

Try them. If they do not work send them back. You may keep what works, just please replace the 1369MS if you like it as its my only one and if I get a 300 it will be on the list to test.

I have your address.

I had my KTM dealer price a slide for me from Sudco today. I have a bunch of credit built up there so I'm going to order a #8. With my discount and shipping I'm right at that $55 mark. Not as bad as I thought.

Between the carb mods, exhaust tuning, and many hours of jetting I eventually got the BST on my LC4 near perfect. A lot of guys did scrap it and go with FCR's, but I was bull-headed.:D

i have a scrap bst (bad valve body gasket - not available...) in pieces. if you want it i'll send it to you..maybe you can make use of the parts... let me know.

WOW, thanks! i will see what i can make work. i was gonna order some on tuesday - maybe a little experimentation will get me a better idea of what will work better.. i really don't want to do another race with no idle circuit.