Yes my Clutch does drag.
 

OK this is starting to really get me griffed & I'm not even sure that is a word.

I'm having problems kickstarting it in gear. Most threads seem to have a bunch of people claiming a particular oil fixes the issue & it is obviously an issue on some bikes.

OK history:
02 EC200. Never used to be a problem.

Starts dragging, adjust the lever & run Castrol MTX as recommended (can't get helix here in NZ). Sort of cures it.
Next try is a 0.7mm shim under the clutch pressure plate (ie: 2 shims now). The idea must be that the slave cylinder can't push far enough. This actually seems to work.

But gradually it starts dragging again.


OK so now to get scientific.
Take the clutch apart & inspect the steels. Hardly marked, no blueing, no warp as far as I can tell with a super thin feeler on glass. Frictions 2.8mm, ie new thickness. Pushrod & everything free & straight (well pretty straight, but not touching anything so not critical).

Change oil, bleed as good as a good thing & adjust so there is like absolutely no freeplay. Basket looks fine, I had ground some tiny ridges out last time, but really minimal, I’ve seen so much worse without a problem on other bikes.

Measure the throw at 1.7mm when I pull the clutch.

Right throw it back together with some Bel Ray this time (also suggestion on another thread).

Drags like a dog, well never a problem in use, just can’t kickstart it. I even tried pumping the lever a few times in case there was some air in the system.

Grrr!

OK the other thing I noticed is when I pulled the clutch lever when I had the cover off I could turn the inner basket with a socket on on of the spring bolt-heads & let the lever out till it grabbed. So far so good, but sometimes it would grab & needed a shock to release it. But I would have thought the kickstarter would do that & pulling the lever a few times.

OK so maybe the slave cylinder needs a rebuild, but it will move the pressure plate 1.7mm so I don’t think it is that at all.

So am I left with perhaps sharp tang on the steel grabbing a friction somewhere in the pack? Bead blasting? Buying a new basket for seemingly fine original ones?

Clamp your clutch lever down and check your clearance all around the pressure plate. I'm wondering if you have one or more weak clutch springs and the pressure plate is not releasing cleanly. When this happens the clutch release sometimes seems erratic. Any machine shop can test the springs or just replace them since they are cheap enough.

I've had this happen before.

First, all the shim for the pushrod does is change the offset or working position of the slave cylinder piston. If there was a dimmensional problem and the slave was bottoming out, it would actually break. Some Husky TEs had this problem and needed to be shimmed but the GG does not.

Make sure the clutch lever is adjusted so that the master can return completely, so it can refill completely.

In addition to what Ud_Luz suggested, I'll add to check the fingers of the plates for burrs. I had a brand new '03 with one burred friction plate, solved with 10 seconds of file work.

And the most obvious, being its an '02 is the basket notched?

Once its mechanically sound, use a 5W-40W diesel oil or light weight MC synthetic. MTX is good but BelRay sucks as far as drag in my experience.

Thanks for the further ideas guys. I can measure the springs against each other in the vice with vernier callipers to compare if any are unequal. However I put the springs back in random order so I’d have had to be unlucky to get 2 bad ones together a 2nd time.

Basket isn’t that bad, maybe some starting of wear, but not bad at all. Bike hasn’t been mistreated, as I said the steels looked clean & the frictions un-worn. However it is the shock that grooves the basket I guess.

I’ll take it apart and tickle up every plate, though it seems weird that it would burr after 6 years use, I can imagine on a new part. If the master wasn’t returning then surely it would pump up like a brake, but this isn’t happening & I’ve tried the lever in several adjustments. I thought the shim idea was unlikely but I did anecdotally notice an improvement. As with all these things that isn’t scientific proof & some other change could have been the deciding factor.

Oh well I guess it’s coming apart again & I’ll retry the MTX.

I'm glad to see this thread. I have been fighting this problem on my 04 300 since I bought it in 06. It had a Rekluse and no clutch lever when I bought it. I removed the Rekluse and put a clutch lever on it, have changed the fluid and bled the clutch a couple of times still no luck.

I guess I can rule out clutch springs and mis-adjusted lever after it did it before and after the Rekluse.

Time to check the plates a little closer. Thanks guys.

Let us know what you find please.

Check the inner basket and outter basket clearances too.. I had some contact on my 03 that I found while looking for my tight clutch. The bushings or should I say outter beariong race that is in the outter clutch basket scored the inner basket and after cleaning this up most if not all went away. I still needed new steel plates as I had a couple warped plates too. But they didnt seem to make much drag after the bushing issue was fixed..
Steve

Just been looking at the part manwell (motor 15 in manual I tried to attach but I can't shrink it to 19kb!!!, how likely was that?)

Either way are you saying that teh bearing of the outer basket was worn? Or just that it was scraping on the inner from a defect?

Mine didn't seem to have much play when I tried to wobble it, but I will pull it all out to check.

Well I found some time to pull the clutch down again in the weekend.

Ok reassess the situation.

Hmm, clutch plates when hooked out of basket seem pretty stuck to each other. Maybe this isn’t fair, the oil was cold & it’s the middle of winter here so not that warm, maybe 10 deg C in the garage (dunno what that is in Fahrenheit, maybe about 400, oh all right [googles it] 50 then, what sort of silly system doesn’t zero at freezing, ok well apart from Kelvin, but that’s different).

Anyhoo. Well maybe the steels are a bit sharp. Usually they get pressed out & one side is sharper than the other. But with wear perhaps this has gotten worse? Cue 30 min with small dremel stone followed up with wire wheel. Now sharp edges taken off the inside fingers & outer circumference edge.

I checked basket & there is a little play, but pushing it every direction & spinning the inner I couldn’t get the two to rub so that’s not it.

I’ve decided while I’m here to rattle off the basket nut & polish the inner basket slots. There are tiny marks on it that maybe the sharp steels were picking up on as they were pretty sharp. With the edges removed it shouldn’t be a problem, but I don’t want to take any chances as motivation to strip it a 3rd time is less than a bit of polishing now.

I’ll check the springs for equal tension & pressure plate for warp, then I’ll put it back together & weather willing test it this weekend.

Well interim report. I spent another hour sanding the clutch inner basket with some sandpaper over a file to remove the small dig marks. No freeplay in basket, checked springs against each other & apart from a false start they seemed to be pretty equal to each other when squeezed against each other in the vice. (you had to get them horizontal or one would bend & distort). Free length was equal.

So does it work? Well bench testing is positive. In Gear it will hold the centre still while spinning the outer basket if I have the clutch in, meaning it seems free enough to kick it & there is sod all drag. However to see this you may have guessed this is without the cover. So I'll try it with some oil & warm in weekend if weather ok.

I think you will find a lot of resistance comes from the oil when you re-oil the clutch but this can still be made worse with slightly warped clutch plates etc.

With my old clutch I could see the plates were warped by putting them on a mirror and looking at them.

As an experiment maybe try a thin oil - I don't know what the thinnest oil is we can safely run in these bikes though? I don't think anything will fail catastrophically but probably accelerate wear. I guess ATF fluid is pretty thin (a lot thinner than standard oil) (can't remember if you have tried that already) if not maybe try a thin ATF fluid.

Is it a dead engine racing start you are having trouble with or trail riding?

On a note the make up of the clutch means if some plates and steels are stuck together with oil and you pull the clutch there is nothing to pull all of the plates apart i.e. only one pf the plates/steels needs to seperate and the reast can stay stuck together and provide quite a bit of resistance when you kick it.. ideally a multi plate clutch shoudl have little springs between each friction and steel so when you pull the clutch they are all pulled apart evenly and none will remain stuck together so they can't drag... I wonder if the order you are putting your steels/plates in is having an effect?

Found this... I'm keen to try some dextron 3 and see how that performs.

ATF Viscosity Characteristics
Product SAE Viscosity
Dexron II & Type F 5W-20
Dexron III, Mercon V & ATF Plus 4 0W-20
Caterpillar Powershift 10W, 30 & 50


Different transmissions have different shifting characteristics, from smooth to aggressive, and call for different fluids. It is important to match transmission fluid with the requirements specified by the transmission manufacturer.

ATF Frictional Characteristics
Product Fluid Characteristic
Chrysler ATF Plus 4
(AMSOIL ATF) Moderately Slippery
Dexron II & III, Mercon V
AMSOIL ATF) ) Slippery
Ford Type F, TO-4
(AMSOIL CT Series & ART) ) Grabby

Oh sorry I forgot I hadn't replied to this, got busy at work, you know how it is.

OK so I couldn't find any MTX so I tried Silkolene as they claim it is light oil & helps combat drag.

I wouldn't use ATF, have seen a gearbox pretty worn after using ATF on roadrace bike. Bikes probably have skinny gears & hard shocks even though less power than Auto g.boxes.

The weather was windy & cold so I took a pussy pill & stayed in bed, it doesn't really snow here but the wind was bitter, at least it sounded that way from my nice warm bed.

However I did start the bike & ride it up the steep drive a bit & slip the clutch at the top to give it a bit of a bed in. I then rode back down & started the bike several times in gear with the clutch in wearing running shoes.

I'm pretty sure it was sharp edged plates snagging on sharp dimples on the inner basket.

Thank you thank you, you may feel that it is necessary to recommend me for a Nobel prize, - but anyone can get one of those these days so instead nominate for Pulitzer for this thread.

ok maybe after a good test I'll know for sure. Sadly that may be a few weeks away.

FWIW ATF works great in 2 stroke trannies. Never seen or heard of a failure from a lubrication standpoint. Easy shifting and little or no clutch drag. The stuff is cheap $$ as well so change it as often as you like. Use Ford F type by the way.


Skidad

I agree Skidad.
If ATF can handle the stresses that an automatic tranny in a car or truck puts on it, it can definatly handle the stresses a that a 2 stroke tranny puts on it. JMHO. My mechanic swears by it in his bikes, but I prefer the feel of Rotella synthetic in my bikes....... and truck and car.......:D

I'm curious about the Rotella synthetic. I'll give it a try and see.


Skidad

I use rotella T Synthetic in my atk, my husky and my gasgas, Mine and my buddies dr 650, and my buddies klx 300. Check out some of the forums, its amazing how many guys use it.

Rotella T synthetic sae 5-40 weight @ wallyworld for 16.00 a gallon.

Its diesel oil, so it does not have to worry about catalytic converter harming additives like zinc. Cheap enough to change often, so shearing should not be an issue. Diesel rigs regularly get 1,000,000 miles between engines using this and their equivalents.

oh gosh please let's not turn this into a oil thread, there's more than enough on the internerd.

The important part is that the clutch did seem to catch sometimes with no oil. I think removing the sharp edges did the trick.

I do like how the pressure plate slides on the inside of the basket rather than the outside, wish my RZ was like that, makes the clutch thin while still having more plates.

I did a search and found this thread.

My 05 EC250 has been getting increasingly grabby over the last few months. First it was noticeable drag when starting in gear. Then it deteriorated to the point where with the bike in gear, motor off, clutch in, I felt the drag when pushing it. Yesterday the bike was idling, I pulled in the clutch and kicked it into 1st and it stalled.

I'm using Rotella Synth.

I had a similar problem with my KDX. A little file work made some improvements.

Time to take it apart and look things over. I need to bleed the three hydraulics anyway.

Hope it helps, I'd like to say at this point that I've had several rides on it & it is now right as rain.

. . . Although the truth it the 'rain' part has been more predominant & I've had a couple of rides cancelled, so, . . . er, I actually haven't ridden the bike in anger yet.:o But Spring has Sprung here in New Zealand & next ride is in 2 weeks. Hope I remember how.

I just got done taking the clutch components out.

First thing I noticed is that the Gasser has waaay better clutch components than my Kawasaki. :p

I squeezed the clutch lever to see how much throw I got which made the clutch lever pump up something fierce. I'll have to bleed it to get the pressure down so the rod moves back. :rolleyes:

The only to-spec area is that the steels are flat, with no edge to them. Everything else, however, needs some attention:

The friction plates are well below tolerances (.105 inches/2.67mm) and the springs are a tad compressed (1.7 inches/43.2mm). Time for a new clutch kit from, who? Go Fasters? He mentioned that I would need OEM steels as aftermarket steels don't work so well in the Gasser. Hopefully he can get them to me before next weekend's club ride.

The basket didn't have horrific peening, but there was some. Not nearly has bad as on my KDX. I lightly filed it down.

What was somewhat alarming to me was the outside edge of the basket fingers which was independent of the peening. They had some pronounced edges to me -- something like a serrated butter knife. Like a bad sand casting. The inside edge was smooth and round. I filed the outside edge to get rid of the grabbies.

That's it for now.

Why not just get Moose Racing Steels, frictions, and springs at your local dealer. Any one that carries Parts Unlimited will be able to get them to you in 5 days. Or you could try DP clutch parts. I hear the DP steels weigh more than the stock steels and creat more rotating mass. Just an option.

I've heard a "rumor" that the Gassers don't like aftermarket steels and that OEM is prefered.

True or nay?

This kind of wear from an 05 is kind of surprising to me from everything I've read about the Gassers. If you aren't a clutch fanning type rider it sure sounds like the PO was.

I had to recently finally had to replace the clutch basket and damper cushions on my 10 YO KTM 250. I had bought all new fibers and steels but the originals were still within spec:eek: so I just put em back in. Clutch is working just fine. Amazing:)


Skidad

All of my clutch is in spec and its got alot of hours on it. I dont use the clutch very much thoe. The owner befor me might have but mabe not.

DO NOT pump up the clutch with nothing to limit the travel of the slave cylinder. Not sure about the '05s but the '03s back had a circlip that could be broken from the slave housing if the piston bottomed against it. My '07 has no circlip, the piston just falls out of the slave if not retained.

AZRick,

GGs have the most durable clutches out there. Bucksnbikes just put a basket in my old '00 last year, and my '03 still has the original. The baskets are hard anodized, they will show some light marks on the fingers but not notch excessively. If someone before you had the bright idea of filing the basket to make it "perfect", then its history, because the anodizing was filed off and now the plates are riding on a soft aluminum surface.

There was once a guy in PA that had a machine shop that fixed clutch baskets with steel inserts. "Stormin Norman Machine" or "Storman Norman Racing" I beleive. No website. I had the phone # somewhere, I'll try and find it.

Now you tellz me. Let's hope I can get it back. :)

I wouldn't say the basket is notched. I had some discoloration where some light peening had begun. I'm not concerned.

The issue with the basket was the outside edge of the fingers that felt rough to me, like it could grab, whereas the inside edge of the finger was nice and smooth.

The previous owner liked to ride very technical and rocky terrain. I do as well, but not quite as much. I wouldn't be surprised if he fanned it through much of the rides over at the "Mile Markers" which is a place in NW Phoenix known for terrain that requires ample clutch manipulation.

There was no evidence of previous filing of the basket. I'm not concerned about it. I could just get the new clutch kit and bolt it together.

So, about these OEM steels. Given that they appear to be in-spec and not discolored, do I need to replace the steels? They look fine to me.

If one were to replace the steels, would you recommend OEM-only steels as GoFasters suggests? I'm thinking that I can I just get the fibers and springs from a local parts distributor? (monkeybuttparts.com).

Thoughts?

I replaced my clutch last year on my 99 EC200! The OEM was in since new, and replaced in 07...that should tell you how good the OEM stuff is. The basket looks perfect....mind you this is on a 200. I am not rough on the clutch, never the less it was due. I replaced it with a Barnett kit, no more clutch drag, proper free play, Motul 2 stroke tranny oil, replaced clutch fluid, using a stringe. Tough as nails

Well my 200 GasGas clutch performed faultlessly yesterday, starting fine in gear first kick no drama.

Unfortunately none of this is relevant to this thread, I was out on my GG Trials bike. I still haven't properly ridden the EC200, & next weekend's ride is cancelled too! May have to get into the bush in the next couple.

Is there a consensus on GoFaster's claim that OEM steels are required (is not required)?

Any friction plates that are recommended?

Here's a macro pic of the clutch fingers...

http://www.gasgasrider.org/gallery/d...ketFingers.JPG

Here's the hub

http://www.gasgasrider.org/gallery/d...h_Hub_Side.JPG

Close up of the finger tips...

http://www.gasgasrider.org/gallery/u...FingerCrop.JPG

That looks fine. If the plates and springs are OK then start looking at the master/slave for a leak that allows pressure to bleed off, reducing travel and increasing drag. Bleed first of course.

The steels are fine. The fibers are out of spec (just under the limit) and the springs are out of spec (a bit more than just under the limit).

If I could buy a set of fiber plates and keep my steels, I would.

I need to get the frictions and springs for sure. Then bleed the system. Good to go.

I don't know if GoFasters can get me the parts in time to get me off to the Camp-n-Ride by Friday morning, so I might just go local (MonkeyButtParts.com) and do Moose or equivalent.

Any detractors?

Rick

I've installed the DP clutch kit (next-day service from MonkeyButtParts). I noticed that one of the steels had a half-inch section on the outer radius that was flat (like a machining error). I decided to use one of my old steels instead.

I bled the line using the syringe technique. Using the syringe to pump clean fluid back up to the reservoir does wonders to flush out hidden bubblets. My old fluid was amber (old). Nice to get new stuff in there.

With the new fresh fluid, bleed, steels, fibers, and springs, the clutch lever gives me more resistance. I watched the plates move in and out a few milimeters (I don't know what standard is).

I'm going to fire it up and see if it actually works. I'm going to defy the GasGas common wisdom and use a 50/50 of ATF and synth Rotella.

Let's hope I didn't screw something up.

I ran 50/50 Type F ATF and 10W-30 in my old '98 EC250. That bike was still on the original clutch when I sold it in April of '07.

I run Amsoil 0W-40 with good results. Really helps in colder weather.

I fired it up and took it easy up and down my street. So far so good. I can kick start it in gear and it doesn't drag. The clutch lever modulates well. Smooth shifting. And neutral is a bit more positive (Before the swap I sometimes had to search for it more than I like).

Good thing I took it easy. As I was putt-putting down the street I heard a ting-ting noise. My axle wrench had just fallen off the nut as I had been riding around with it all that time. I decided that discretion required me to coast into the garage to see what else I had forgotten to do. :o

I'm just not very good with tools.

I'd like some more info on this "syringe technique" for filling and bleeding the clutch res.

Thanks.