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-   -   2009 GG 450FSR idle settings (http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25716)

AzWickedSS 09-17-2021 10:20 PM

2009 GG 450FSR idle settings
 
Is there a starting point with setting the idle on these bikes similar to 2t's where its seat the idle screw then a certain amount of turns out?

I just put a new fuel pump in when I switched back to the stock tank and the bike fired right up without issue. Went for a short ride and it ran great. Shut it down and it wouldn't fire back up. Let it sit and it fired up but RPM's seemed higher than usual so I started messing with the it and now I'm stuck. Bike keeps flooding upon start up now and won't fire. I put a new injector and micro filter in, made sure the battery was fully charged and still no start with smell of raw gas. The idle screw I believe is the culprit but I dont know where to start with it. Should I back it off the throttle body completely then adjust inward or vise versa? This isn't my first efi bike but its different than my last RMZ and CRF and I'm stumped

Gasser Nate 09-18-2021 03:17 AM

The 4 strokes were an absolute pain in the ass but the kokusan models were miles ahead of the early magneti marelli equipped ones.
The did have a setting but I have lost all my factory specs on them. The air bleed screws worked best around 1.5-2 turns out. If the throttle stop screw has not been played with DONT!
The idle is usually set quite high around 1800rpm.
When I was at the dealer we had the performance Gasgas map and the software to update it. Cost us a bomb from Gasgas and only worked on one dinosaur computer.
Did make them run a lot stronger and start easier. Also had the diagnostic capabilities as well.

AzWickedSS 09-18-2021 05:26 PM

I guess thats where I'm having the issues. Is there another adjustment besides the screw that under the throttle cable housing? With 2t's it was always turn all the way in then come out 1.5/2 turns and you should get the bike to fire up then you can fine tune. You mentioned an air bleed, is there one on the EFI?

AzWickedSS 09-18-2021 06:52 PM

Doesn't look like the 09 has the air bleed screw, just the idle/throttle stop screw for adjusting. I can't for the life of me figure out how much to adjust it. I guess I'll start with it just touching the throttle stop and keep adjusting in. Bike keeps flooding though since it's not firing up.

Gasser Nate 09-19-2021 06:06 AM

I was pretty sure they still had the air bleed screw. Bumping the idle up will not cure a flooding bike. Cure the symptoms first. Check for leaking injectors/faulty tps/temperature sensors etc.

Gasser Nate 09-19-2021 06:17 AM

What is the fuel pressure at?

AzWickedSS 09-19-2021 10:15 AM

Haven't tested actual fuel pressure. I swapped injectors a few times ( I have 4 spares) just to make sure. Wasnt having issues till I tried to mess with the idle then all hell has broke loose. I cleaned the air filter last night and need to re install and test. It was pretty oily/dirty. Spark is strong so hoping that maybe from riding it the air filter sucked some oil/dirt in and is not allowing enough air in to fire easily. I've read GG are sensitive to the idle setting.and can cause issues firing. I just can't find a baseline as to where to start ( # of turns out from all the way in, etc)

Gasser Nate 09-19-2021 09:54 PM

Also when was the last time valve clearances were checked?

AzWickedSS 09-20-2021 12:10 AM

They were done not long ago supposedly but thats also on my list now. Whatever is going on seems fuel related though whether it's the injector or the new pump. Have a new injector I'm going to try out and pull the pump and test.

Gasser Nate 09-20-2021 01:37 AM

Are those injectors rated at the same flow? You may have been inadvertently installed one with a higher flow rate.

AzWickedSS 09-20-2021 02:19 PM

I believe its the correct one. IWP043 is what was in it already and the few searches I was able to find reference that one as well.

AzWickedSS 10-10-2021 03:22 AM

Had the bike apart and added new radiators, injector and plug. Got it to fire up and got idle set up. Still issues though I can't seem to figure out. I can start the bike easily cold and let it warm up etc and shit it down and it will fire right back up. I can test throttle response and what not while it's running with no issues and it would hold idle no issues and restart. As soon as I take it out for a quick spin, even if it's 100yds up the street and back, once I shut it down it will not fire back up. Going to change the fuel pump out again as I noticed when I pulled the tank the last time fuel was still running out of the line even with the pump not getting power. That doesn't seem right to me with a FI bike. I'm thinking once a load hits the electrical somewhere its causing the issues. Maybe the new fuel pump is bad, maybe a temp sensor or another sensor, maybe coil, etc. Any ideas?

mekket 10-10-2021 09:43 AM

Maybe the pump had pressureised the line and that caused some of it to flow out when you took the tank off?

mekket 10-10-2021 05:40 PM

Can you post a video of your no start condition? Maybe it will be easier for others to spot a potential problem that way. Im not sure if this applies to the kokusan ECUs but I think some of the fuel injected bikes had problems with ECU pins having poor connections. Maybe look into that aswell?

AzWickedSS 10-11-2021 12:07 AM

Bike is apart already, going to swap the fuel pump out tomorrow and go from there again. Will try to grab video once back together again. Just odd it only won't fire after its actually ridden and shut off. Sitting idle to warm up and cracking throttle i can shut it down and it will start back up. I'm wondering if the fuel bag came off or something and there is minor debris in the tank that when ridden its enough to suck it through the pump and then clog the injector just enough. Maybe the coil or another sensor is the culprit, just don't know at this point.

Gasser Nate 10-11-2021 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekket (Post 198978)
Can you post a video of your no start condition? Maybe it will be easier for others to spot a potential problem that way. Im not sure if this applies to the kokusan ECUs but I think some of the fuel injected bikes had problems with ECU pins having poor connections. Maybe look into that aswell?

The kokusan equipped bikes were much more reliable, starting and running.

AzWickedSS 10-11-2021 09:55 AM

Gasser Nate, everything I've found online suggests the same thing about the efi system. No as problematic as previous one. I'm just stumped since it always happens after actually riding it. I'm thinking it's a sensor or fuel pump once it really needs to work since otherwise it fires up easily.

I read these bikes like to it up around 2k rpms, any idea what idle is with a cold start during warm up?

Gasser Nate 10-12-2021 03:55 AM

They are supposed to idle at 1800 +/- 50rpm.
They also do not have a fast idle circuit as such but do obviously have and enrichener map.

AzWickedSS 10-12-2021 02:22 PM

Pulled the cam cover off and was able to get measurements. Guessing they need adjustment as they are a bit tight. Trying to find what the exact range is though. Read .15mm intake and. 20mm exhaust on another thread but not sure what the gapping is around those numbers.

Readings I got
Intake
L -.10MM
R - .13MM

Exhaust
L - .18mm
R - .18mm

Now I saw several people say DRZ shims work, any idea if its year specific for those?

mekket 10-12-2021 04:18 PM

The shims are 9.48mm - the same as DRZ and many other bikes.

Intake 0.10mm ~ 0.20mm
Exhaust 0.20mm ~ 0.30mm

I have always set mine up according to this and tried to get it in the middle of the ranges so 0.15mm for the intake and 0.25mm for the exhaust.

AzWickedSS 10-12-2021 04:27 PM

Thanks!, guess I got some shimming to do. Appreciate the info very much.

AzWickedSS 10-15-2021 03:09 PM

Shimmed the valves and they are within spec. Intakes is at .14 and. 15 and exhaust .26 and .28.

Bike fired right up and sounded good, let it warm up and shut her down then no fire again. This time though it sounds like its almost there. It almost turns over hot and fires but just won't fully commit.

Difference this time around is if I let it sit for 5-10min it will fire back up where as before the motor had to completely cooled down. Basically a few hours or even just had to wait till the next day. I warmed it up and checked spark and its very strong. It almost seems like something is getting heat soaked and causing the no start. Still going through the bike and checking grounds but what else? Coolant sensor seems to be working according to the multimeter as temp goes up resistance goes down.

mekket 10-15-2021 04:44 PM

Maybe you could try to bumpstart it when its not turning on. If it starts easily then, you could be looking at a starter or battery related issue? What oil are you running?

AzWickedSS 10-15-2021 05:12 PM

I've tested the battery and also used a spare car battery i have as a jumper with no luck. As for oil I put motul 4t oil in.

mekket 10-15-2021 05:21 PM

You could still have problems with the cranking speed due to too thin battery cables or a worn starter or something else. Im not saying that you do but it is a possibility. If you can bump start it when its hot and it will not start with e-start then I would be looking at the starter and everything related to its performance.

AzWickedSS 10-15-2021 07:05 PM

I'll dig into that as well, I'm going shim down a size on the exhaust valves so they sit at .23 instead of .28. Have read several different specs on them but they all start at .20 and go to .25 or .30. When they were tight I got no sign of firing up after the bike was ran, now it wants to but its off just a bit. Maybe they are too loose now and should fall in the .20-.25 range.

Running 98 octane as well, not sure if that could cause anything compared to 91/93 octane since it technically burns slower but cleaner.

mekket 10-15-2021 07:31 PM

I think the manual calls for 98 octane to be honest.
I have a 450 pampera that has been converted into a supermoto - pretty much the same engine as you but it has a carb instead of EFI. It has always been a hard starter. I even bought a lithium battery to see if that would help but now my starter clutch is slipping. I have been push starting it for the last couple of months now. I also had a 2008 515 FSR that I bought this summer to fix and sell. Never had any starting issues with it hot or cold. I did put a new battery on it but it sure seemed that it was cranking over noticeably faster than my 450. I am planning on taking my starter apart to see if it has any wear or needs to be cleaned as well as fixing the starter clutch issue. To bump start my 450 I usually run along the bike until I reach about 15 kmh or 10mph and then I usually throw it into 2nd and jump on the seat just as I release the clutch. Seems to start pretty much every time like this. Even easier when its hot. Might be more difficult on off road tires.

I've read on the 2stroke section that they add thicker wires from either the battery to ground or to the starter to make them start easier. I have been thinking of trying this as well.

A silly idea but you could try letting the fuel pump prime 2 or 3 times before starting by turning the kill switch/ignition on and off.

AzWickedSS 10-15-2021 07:57 PM

I've the fuel pump priming multiple times and even put a new fuel pump and injector in it. I haven't found a details service manual yet for this bike that give me all the info and wiring schematic break downs either. Doing the shims again now and will keep at it.

AzWickedSS 10-15-2021 09:07 PM

How do you check and clean the starter. Etc? Its so close to firing when hot now. Almost starts the process of idling but won't fully fire. Let sit for 5min and it fires up now.

mekket 10-15-2021 09:32 PM

I have not taken mine apart yet but i believe that there are plenty of videos on youtube. I would make sure the brushes are not worn and making decent contact with the commutator bar. But to me it seems like you still have some sort of fuel issue. You could try taking the sparkplug out and adding a tiny amount of fuel down the hole right into the cylinder and then screwing the sparkplug back on and starting it. If it starts then you most probably have a fuel issue.

AzWickedSS 10-15-2021 10:04 PM

I have multiple injectors and no real change when putting a new one in. Maybe one of the sensors that communicates with the computer but I don't have a diagram of whats what. Coolant sensor, air sensor, etc thats not supplying the right amount of fuel/timing when hot. Not sure but its driving me a bit crazy

MikelDuke 10-16-2021 01:03 PM

Hi
I am having similar issues to yours. Bike is very hard to cold start, it floods. When flooded, if I turn to start engine with the fuel pump disconnected, then it backfires and starts, and then I switch the fuel pump on again. I though it could be the fuel pressure regulator, which lets the pressure being too high, but it is not. Maybe it is the throttle sensor, which signal is too high, and the cdi commands fuel...I Will order a TPS and replace it, but the question is, hoy can I config the TPS range in the Kokusan CDI?

AzWickedSS 10-16-2021 01:42 PM

Have you checked your valves yet? If its hard to start cold valves have always been the culprit for me. My issue is it fires up cold easily but once warmed up and ridden it won't fire.

I have a new coolant sensor on the way and I pulled the ambient temp sensor last night that was caked in dirt so I'm hoping one or the other clears it up. I feel like it's a sensor that's either getting heat soaked and telling the computer to add to much fuel or vise versa.

AzWickedSS 10-16-2021 01:46 PM

Also the fuel injectors have been known to cause issues if anything clogs them the smallest amount. They can be had for like $10 online depending where you're located. Search IWP043. Got mine through Amazon since it was the quickest way for me.

MikelDuke 10-16-2021 04:27 PM

Valve clearance is fine, I checked it, and the injector is new. I hace a spare of the water temperature sensor, the one located at the cylinder, but I do not know about the ambient temperature sensor, where is it?

MikelDuke 10-16-2021 04:31 PM

By the way, the TPS I ordered is the MARELLI: PF1C/00

AzWickedSS 10-16-2021 07:00 PM

Air sensor is in the air box, right side near starter relay. You can see it barely if you remove the filter and can also access it by removing right side number plate on exhaust side. It's a small resistor type sensor, mine was covered up with dried dirt pretty good. Haven't put it back yet though and tried to fire it up. Was reading some ducati forums and its cause hard/ no stats with a lot of people. I don't know the PN off hand and hoping I can cross reference to something easily available.

mekket 10-16-2021 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikelDuke (Post 199026)
Valve clearance is fine, I checked it, and the injector is new. I hace a spare of the water temperature sensor, the one located at the cylinder, but I do not know about the ambient temperature sensor, where is it?

The water temp sensor connected to the cylinder head should be responsible for turning on the radiator fan and as far as I know it has nothing to do with EFI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzWickedSS (Post 199029)
Air sensor is in the air box, right side near starter relay. You can see it barely if you remove the filter and can also access it by removing right side number plate on exhaust side. It's a small resistor type sensor, mine was covered up with dried dirt pretty good. Haven't put it back yet though and tried to fire it up. Was reading some ducati forums and its cause hard/ no stats with a lot of people. I don't know the PN off hand and hoping I can cross reference to something easily available.

https://www.roadraceperformanceshrop...erature-sensor Is this the sensor you are looking for? Ducati p/n 552.4.012.1A

AzWickedSS 10-16-2021 09:31 PM

That looks like the air sensor.

My bike didn't come with a fan, from what I read the temp sensor does communicate with the computer and can affect hot startingif it's not telling the computer the right readings

mekket 10-31-2021 11:17 AM

Have you made any progress? I took apart my starter motor. The brushes were quite worn and the bearing in the front of the starter is completely destroyed. I am still waiting for a new bearing and probably will be for a while because the only place I could find a suitable bearing was aliexpress and shipping from there takes ages. New brushes were easier to find. A brushplate from a DRZ400 fit perfectly and was around 10$


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