My starter works great now!
 

Long winded but I hope worth it,

The back story. My starter never worked very well, especially when cold. It would routinely fail to engage or cut out quickly after barely turning the engine over. It also made lots of clashing gear noises too. The conventional wisdom was that the gears needed more space which seemed to be confirmed by the fact that Gas Gas provided a "fix" in the form of a gasket set that included a thicker gasket albeit it also included a thinner one too. I installed the thicker gasket which seemed to help at first but didn't really. After 2 years of barely working and making lots of clashing noises while attempting to use it the gears gave up. I lost a couple of ring gear teeth and the pinion gear teeth were all rounded off. I did notice that the pinion teeth were rounded off only on the tips which showed that I had the gears pretty far apart so further opening the gap didn't seem to be an option.

I bought a new ring and pinion (bendix) at a cost of $100 for the ring gear and a whopping $200 for the bendix. I installed the new parts with the standard thickness gasket since I didn't like how the shallow tooth engagement ripped the top of the teeth off. The ring gear came with two thin shims which would have tightened the gap between gears so given the conventional wisdom and the fact that there weren't any shims in there stock I left them out.

I had hoped Gas Gas did something to the bendix and that my shiny new one would work better. Nope, it worked worse than ever. After spending so much money only to have it work worse I was pretty pissed. After three rides the teeth stripped off again. That was much worse life than before and I didn't know why. I pretty much gave up hope and decided to kick start it only to have my kickstarter break. Not a happy camper.

I decided I wanted a starter so I set about finding a more fairly priced source for the bendix. I reasoned that the bendix probably was an off the shelf item that fit something else. After much searching I didn't find an exact replecement but I did find a replacement that had all the necessesary parts needed to fix mine. What I found was a bendix from a Honda Elite CH80 scooter is the exact same thing with the exception of the larger gear driven by the starter motor. That gear has more teeth than the Gas Gas bendix but that's the part that never goes bad because it's always fully engaged. I found that you can take apart your bendix and replace all the parts that make a difference and the Honda bendix can be had for $39 all day long on Ebay with free shipping. There are also used ones for cheap which is what I bought since I was experimenting. I bought a used one for $14. The part number is SMU5011.

I also bought a bendix which fits a chinese 50cc scooter, also for experimenting. The reason I bought the 50cc scooter bendix is that it also has 14 teeth on the pinion but more importantly it costs under $15 brand spanking new. If I could make that one work it would be a huge victory. It was not to be as the flyweight assembly is smaller but hey, I'm happy with $39 as opposed to $200 from Gas Gas.

I put the new pinion/flyweight assembly from the Honda CH80 scooter on the Gas Gas gear/shaft. While I was at it I slightly stretched the spring that holds the flyweights in place as was suggested by someone else on this forum. I also used the return spring from the 50cc Chinese scooter because it was a little "lighter" tension spring. If I was going for it I was going all the way. Looking good so far. Next comes assembly on the engine. I took careful measurements by measuring from the teeth of the gears to the gasket surfaces of the cases and it was obvious to me that the spacing was indeed very loose and that even a thinner gasket wouldn't get the gears close enough to prevent the tips from rounding off again. I installed the 2 shims that came with the new ring gear. I still felt like there was going to be excessive spacing between the gears given what my measurements were telling me so I found that I had some washers in my stash that happened to be the exact same inner diameter and were a lot thicker. They are about 1/16" thick and with one of them installed I was where I wanted to be. I was looking for about 1/2mm between the tip of the pinion tooth and the root of the ring gear teeth not counting gasket thickness. I applied a dab of STP to the teeth of the ring gear and put it all together with the thinnest gasket from the Gas Gas kit.

I have to tell you that I was pretty nervous about pushing the starter button. I had high hopes before and was always disappointed. When I pushed the button on a cold engine I was shocked when it engaged immediately, cranked over and over and perhaps best of all it sounded smooth and relatively quiet. Gone were all the clashing noises I had grown accustomed to. I tried it several times and it worked each and every time. It stays engaged for as long as your finger is on the button...every time. I was pumped. I went riding the next day and from the time I rolled it off the the truck in 25 degree weather until I ran the bike after washing it post ride it worked 100% of the time on the first push of the button and without any bad noises. It never worked like this from the time it was new. I can say that I'm in love with my Gas Gas all over again.

In conclusion. #1 Gear spacing is important but opening up the spacing isn't what makes it work well and will only get you stripped/broken teeth. I have a strong opinion that tighter is better particularly for extending the life of the teeth. #2 Should you need a bendix you don't need to spend $200. I spent $14 on the one I ended up using. What really fixed the engagement? Probably stretching the spring as was suggested to me by someone on this forum. Most importantly, what I thought was a bad design actually can be made to work. If you hate your starter you might want to try fixing it. Should you have to? no, but if you want it to work you must fix it. Mine works great.

The broken ring gear on the left. The spacers supplied by Gas Gas, the spacer I used is on the right.

could gear marking compound be used to verify engagement, like when setting up the ring and pinion in an axle?

That would be difficult since the bendix would have to be in the engaged position and the tooth would have to be rotated into the root of the ring gear teeth. Difficult but probably not impossible.

More pics:

In the picture with three bendix' the GG is on the left, the Honda is in the middle (with a stripped GG pinion gear on it) and the Chinese scooter one is on the right. You can see what I mean about the teeth being stripped but only at the tips. The return spring, then the flyweight spring that I stretched. The last pic is of the flyweights w/spring

I am constantly amazed at the ingenuity and resourcefulness of the members on this forum!

Glad you got it working!

Your find of the Honda scooter bendix is going to be very valuable for others.

I got mine working 100% as well. I was fortunate enough to not have to experiment much and I didn't ruin a bendix or anything because of everyone's trial and error in the other thread.

For me to get to 100%, I shimmed the starter out from the case at the mounting bolts (M6 washers?), that way the starter is straight up and down and not pulled in closer to the case by the bolts. Then I stretched the flyweights spring.

Bob,
Your photos show an unusual condition. Your gear engagement was WAY looser than what anyone else has indicated. The pinion has been climbing over the ring gear. Not much wonder it has worn so badly. Obviously there is far more crankshaft location variation than what should happen during assembly. I would expect maybe .010" difference, but your bike must have been off .060" or more.

Factory tolerances need improvement.

While the flyweight spring is the critical setup issue, it can't overcome really poor spacing. For the purpose of a starter, the gear tooth engagement is not terribly fussy. All it needs is from slight play to moderately large play. Yours was grossly excessive.

Excellent work finding alternate sources for lower cost parts.

There are plenty of variances coming out of the factory. The second bendix that stripped is on the left and shows that engagement was even shallower than when the first gear stripped (middle bendix). Trouble is that when the second one stripped I had a thinner gasket between the cases and the teeth stripped way fast. The only other difference was that I had a different (new) ring gear on the flywheel.

Great info! could you give me the inside diameter, outside diameter, and thickness of the shim you used? Im experiencing the same troubles. After fixing up my bendix I started wearing my gears as well.
Thanks again!

Great News! How hard is it to do this fix? I played with my KTM 300 starter a few times and it is pretty straight forward. I have not had the Gasser`s apart yet, but it looks like there is more going on than the KTM`s

Good to hear Bob. I know it's been acting up a long time. I'm glad you got it all sorted out.

e-start fix
 

This forum is awesome! I just might consider trying to find an e-start kit, at some point. Although if they all work good, it will be harder to find used kits. :(

Mine might be available, but havnt decided yet. It may already be spoken for though.

I'll have to measure it and get back to you.

The hardest part was getting the little ring off that holds the pinion/flyweight assembly on. It's tough to get something under it to peel it off the shaft. Otherwise it's easy to work on.

Couple more pics

The washer I used behind the ring gear is 1.6mm or .063 "

Sorry for the late reply, I was in Michigan riding my snowmobile.

I'd be glad to send you one as I have many of them.

Your post motivated me to tear into my starter. I found that my drive gear that engaged into the starter motor was bored off center. This caused the outer cage that's pushed against the drive gear to wobble and drag against the small inner cage that extends out when the starter spins. I luckily spotted it when I was spinning the shaft in my hand. I'm a machinist by trade, so I chucked the gear up and bored it on center, then reinstalled it onto the shaft with some shim stock. I rode the bike on Saturday and the starter worked flawlessly. I was just curious if you still had your old parts and if so does the gear that engages the starter spin true? I attached an image to help clarify what I was trying to convey(crap, just realized I misspelled outer in the image and I'm too lazy to fix it!).

Are you saying that you removed the larger diameter gear from the shaft?

Are you also saying that you bored the center hole of said gear and if so how did it then fit onto the shaft again.

I Still have a pile of parts to look at but I'm confused

I took mine a part today, all the gears looked fine, I also stretched the spring as indicated, seems to be working better. Thanks for all your work on this and finding alternative parts!!!

Sorry for the confusion, yes I pressed the larger gear off the shaft. After I bored it larger(about .006"), I pressed it back on by inserting .003" thick steel shim stock between the shaft and the gear to make up for the difference I removed from the gear.

I was just curious if your larger gear runs straight when you hold the shaft at either end and spin it. If it is running out like mine, it should be quite noticeable.

Well I don't even have an e start model, but thanks for the read.

I don't have estart either. But love reading the engineer ideas like this.


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FYI. I have a starter off a 2012 GG with a bad Bendix to sale if anyone out there want to give this a try....


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Gasser starters
 

I know I'm late to the party,but I remember a CA. company named GOKI manufacturing. Who made starters for and still do for Honda big bore 4T's
like the 350's and so on.They look very similar to the present GG design.
Please keep in mind these were designed 20 years ago. I thought this interesting. Perhaps a source for parts. Thoughts?
John

I almost gave up on my e-start. After reading this thread and doing a little work it works 100%. Thanks a ton!

Although I haven't explored the availability of parts for the Gas Gas 2-stroke starters with them, Stockers Starters has been a great resource for me in the past. www.stockers.com
In addition to yamaha street bike and atv starters and Polaris starters, I was able to get all the replacement parts needed (including the square bodied sealing o-rings) to do repairs on my 2004 FSE 400.

Thank you for taking the time to document your experience and findings as you worked through your starter difficulties.

I'm still relatively new to the GG 2-stroke electric starter experience, but I can tell that my starter has some friction and slop with the bendix action. It works very well, as long as it's not too cold, so far, but I can see it acting up before too long. Thanks to this thread, I have a much better understanding of my starter, and what will need to make it work smoothly and for a long time.


Good Ridiing and Wrenching to You All!
Jim

Hey Bob

I finally have time to work on my estart, because the wifey is out of the country. I took mine apart and all the parts look great with no missing teeth. I dont understand where you are shimming and how to you take the bendix apart to stretch the spring. I bought the bike used and the previous owner said that the starter was always hit or miss. But I am coming off a KTM and I want mine to hit ;)

Marc

The spring is inside the bendix unit. You have to cam the bendix unit open by hand and look under the sheetmetal housing to see the spring.
It is a very dainty spring, easily picked off using a scriber.

Yea I see it, but I dont understand how to pull it apart. But I dont understand why that needs to come out. I understand the larger spring at the end, but dont know how to stretch that one out.

So what I am finding is when the Bendix spins it does not go down far enough to engage the flywheel. Is this what others are also finding?

I bought a more powerful battery and now I e-start my bike every time , even when cold. My bike starts every time but not necessarily on the first or second push of the button because the starter will disengage way too easily. One leg kick will spin my motor twice as far as the e-start will turn it before it disengages on its own. Does this mean I need to stretch that small, weak spring you folks talk about?

Yes, Just cam your bendix to the full out position and you will be able to see the gathering spring. You can reach in with an o'ring pick and pull it out enough to get your finger under it. I just tug on it gently maybe pull it out about a inch. Don't get too carried away or you can over stretch it and loose all the tension. This will weaken the spring a little and help the fly weights stay in the out position while cranking the starter. I have done this on quite a few different Gas Gas bendix's and it has always helped.
Also look at the bendix when it is in the out position and make sure that it isn't packed full of grease around the weights. I have seen a few new ones that were so packed full of grease that the weights couldn't fly out while spinning.

Thanks Rosco

So you are talking about that really skinny spring that you can almost see? Stretch that out by about an inch? There is no grease on the inside of my Bendix.

Marc

Yes just pull on it a little. Basically you want to just relax the spring a little. You aren't really changing the size of the spring when its at rest you are just making it a little weaker so it doesn't have as much tension on the weights. Be careful not to let the bendix go back to the closed position while you have the spring pulled out. I haven't had it happen yet but it looks like it could mangle the spring a little if it did.

http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/sho...2&postcount=31

Some ideas on spring stretching from another estart tpoic.

So when I started chasing the starter there was zero engagement at all. The only thing the bendix would do is spin. So I took everything off the bike and stretched out the little spring within the bendix and I shimmed the starter from the two bolts that hold it on. Well it seems like it really wants to work now and does engage a bit. The first time I pushed the button the bike was in gear and it actually moved the bike :D The sound is very similar to what my 09 KTM 300XC starter sounded like before it would engage. I dont know if the battery is just weak now or if am just not quite there. Let me know if you guys have any ideas at this point. The battery is a Shorai.

Marc

Jump it from a car battery and see if it improves. If there is no difference, then your bike battery is OK. I use the 8cell Ballistic battery as it has with a higher cold cranking rating than the Shorai.

The easy way to test for engagement is to tape the bendix fully open and reassemble the case and bendix (no starter motor). Oscillate the bendix top gear to see what the freeplay feels like. Too little = shim out ignition cover with thick gasket. Too much = shim out ring gear with custom shims.

If you take the two bolts out that hold the starter to the side of the cylinder you will sometimes see a gap between the starter and the mounting bracket. I usually just take a couple 6mm washers and smear a little silicone on them to fill in the gap. This will allow the starter to be mounted without putting a bind on it when you tighten it down.

Thanks Neil and Rosco

So I don't believe it's the battery and I will tell you why. I did the tape trick with the bendix and it seemed good. Not to tight and not to much play. I also shimmed the starter to the mounting bracket. When I first did this the darter would try to start the bike. So what I did was kick start the bike and let it warm for a few minutes. Than I pushed the button and all the bendix would do is spin . So I am wondering if that little spring in the bendix is the culprit ? Should I try to stretch it more or is there something else I should also be looking at?


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Ok

So I went back in and stretched the small spring out more. When out and put the jumpers from the car to the bike. AND BAM! Started right up:D I guess the only problem now is that I need a new battery :mad: Thanks guys for all the help! Now can someone find me a inexpensive battery ;)

Marc

Charge the battery, then report back to us. You have adjusted the spring, and then drained the battery. Restore the charge in the battery and see if that works before dropping any money on a new one. Free fixes first, eliminate any potential contributing factors.

Spend money as a last resort!