NEW! GasGas EC250 4-stroke w/Yamaha Engine!
 

Hey all,
I received an email yesterday from Dale (US Importer) regarding a
new 4-stroke EC250 with a Yamaha engine. Spain needs to know what the
market is in the US before they proceed. We would appreciate any input
that you can give regarding this bike. Here is a partial copy of the email
from Spain:

Dear all,

As you know, we had been working in a new EC 250 4 strokes.

Finally we have the first protoype running, and it's a great bike which
unites a reliable engine as the Yamaha 250 4 strokes and our great frame.

Our mechanics are really impressed with the bike!!

Attached you can see two photos.

This is not the definitive version, maybe the graphics will be different, or
some components will be more racing (front forks, brakes...). Nothing that
would change the price too much.

This bike will fit a Yamaha engine, and that's why the production of this
model will work in a different way than the rest of our range.

We need to know how many units we are going to sell, and also when we will.
We will only make three productions a year of this bike, no more.

To be able to serve all the bikes on time, and in order to buy the engines
to Yamaha Company, we'd like to have a real forecast.

Anual forecast: The number of bikes you think you'll be able to sell. Is not
an order, is just an estimation of the market in your countries.

1st, 2nd and 3rd order: This are the importants. This will give me the
number of bikes I know I'll have to produce. It means that if you think that
your market could sell 100 units but you only want to start with 50, the
total amount must be 50.

Then later, if we have enough engines and production times, you'll be able
to add more, but always the priority will be for the older orders.

If we don't recieve signed and stamped orders (it's not a contractual order,
is just a compromise that you'll order them), we won't keep going with this
bike.

We have a lot of hopes in that bike, and according to the information you
have sent us, there's a big potential with it.

In a nearly future maybe we will release a 450 version, but not yet.

Please, if you have any questions about that do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks a lot and best regards.

PS: I must have all the orders signed, stamped, scanned and emailed back
before 23rd May.

THANKS in Advance for your input. Click on the Thumbnails below for larger images.

Thats a good approach, use the industry's most reliable 250F motor for now rather than risk disaster with a premature release of their own. That motor will run for years in a woods bike, I've seen it. Parts are also on every corner. I'd buy one for my next bike, as I love the GG chassis and get along well with the Yamaha 250Fs I've ridden.

Thanks for being the 1st to post a reply!
 

Glenn,
What part of the U.S. are you from? I should have stipulated that in the
original post because we are trying to get an idea of where these bikes will
be going and how many of course. What I'm concerned with is that when
the GasGas Reps and dealers in the 50 states get back to Dale we don't
have too much of an overlap on the total interest in this bike. It's always
difficult to estimate future sales (especially in this current economy and a
brand new bike). We want to order enough to satisfy the demand but not
have too many leftovers for the current model year.

Thanks again.

Tom

I'd even be interested in one of these,, but my next GG will most likely be another 2stroker.. And GMP is kinda near me,, mid atl. region,, He is N. Jersey, I'm Ne Pa.. And I could see this bike doing well up here.. Lots of WR250's out here.. one of the best 250 4strokes out there..

I'm in Minnesota and I am definitely considering moving to a 250 4stk. (or 300;) )

High on my priority list...

- High end suspension

- street legal out of the box like the Huskys

- Quiet.

- WR six speed tranny which I assume you'd get with the Yammy WR motor

- Magic button

- I would "really" like a white "Six Days" version. :D

May 23rd! Wow not much time. What is the price? Is it street legal? A 300 version here in New Hampshire would be awesome! I can't buy anything right now...so I'm out. :( :( :(

What do they mean a 450 version? Don't they already have a good 450 enduro bike? I wouldn't be ditching the old motor and sticking a WR450f motor in there. There current motor's pretty good IMO

Yes I'm in Northern NJ. WR250Fs work real well in the nasty stuff here, especially in the rain over challenging terrain. Very easy to hook up and maintain traction. My friend comes out on his '07 with trashed rear knobby and gives me a hard time with my trials tire. I'm a big beleiver in "less is more" for riding/racing in technical terrain. I almost bought a WR250F and thought about getting one in the future as they as so easy to ride.

This does not appear to be a motor development project so don't expect any big bore 300 version. Also I wouldn't expect it to be street legal, even Yamaha has a totally different motor for that. I'm assuming its the WR motor with e-start. If you want a 290F there are a couple kits available for a decent price. Its a safe, cheaper way to get into the 250F market. One thing though, this can't be too expensive or everyone will just buy the Yamaha.

I can't say when I'd be able to buy a new bike, but this would be a top contender. My only issue (a small one) with the '07+ Yamaha WR250F is the seat height, and the GG frame would solve that. My next XRay is 6/10. If I don't get cleared to ride I'm likely sending my '07 and spares down the road and see what happens next year.

Another thought: Could they build a small pilot production run of demo bikes?

Yamaha motor is a 5 speed :mad: I also don't think it's a very light motor. On the Yamaha web site their 250 WR is listed at 260lbs wet (2.1 gallon tank). The list price for the Yammi is $6700 and I can't imagine what the Gasser will cost with the Yamaha motor but I'm sure it will be at least $1000 more and just how long is this gonna be produced like this? 1, 2 , 3 years??? Sorry I'll pass on this mongrel and if I want a 250 it'll be a KTM. Despite what many here want to think or believe the newer KTM 250 thumpers are really nice bikes, are very light, handle just fine and have a 6 speed tranny :D :D You also have the option of after market 280, 290, 320 and 350 big bore kits available depending on how deep your pockets are. It will be interesting to see how this works out for Gas Gas.

I am in the market for a 250 4t for my daughter (she's 12 now, but i'll get her the 250 for next year. She's a big, strong kid). Right now my options are the KTM and the Yamaha. This bike would fit her to a "T."

I'd be all over it.

The problem we have here, though, is for a trail rider, why not buy a Yamaha? I know we all love GG here, but if I am marketing to the general public, a Yamaha motor in a GG is really a Yamaha. (Devil's advocate).

I read once that a motorcycle company isn't a motorcycle company until they manufacture their own engines.

The GG will have to be substantially lighter and much better suspended than the Yamaha. How much is that going to drive the price up?

From a marketing standpoint, sourcing another motor makes more sense. GG started with TM. TM has a 4T, but i think it is a big bore. Maybe a joint development between TM and GG could produce a competitive motor both could use.

The other option would be to use the Husky 4T motor. This would be a lesser option than a TM/GG motor.

The point about a Yamaha as a five speed is another good point. If GG does this, an exclusive six speed might be of value. Is there enough room now for a six speed? I am not sure. Something to work out.

I just fear that the Yamaha motor brands this bike as a Yamaha.

GG should consider a joint venture with TM.

How is the new flat head trials motor? a first year motor need not be a disaster.

Thanks.

blitz

The Yamaha has more than enough top speed for any northeast riding. The new WR trans is sort of a hybrid CR/WR and works well. Up in Hancock it did over 70 on the road with no problems. You know, I'll take a few lbs to gain reliability in a motor any day. Hell, thats the trait of the GG 2-stroke motor, its far from the lightest but bulletproof. FWIW, a stock '07 WR250F with handguards weighs just 3 lbs more than my old '03 EC250 fully decked out, both bikes approx half a tank of fuel.

In addition to the the fact that I still can't stand the way KTMs feel (yes I have ridden new ones), that 250F has its issues. Major boilover problems in tight slow going on the the couple I've seen for starters. How many KTM 250Fs can go multiple seasons with just a valve adjust and a cam chain? Not being a smartass I'd really like to hear longevity stories, and how much it costs to fix if it does go boom. I'm a Euro bike guy for sure, but have to admit that the Yamaha is a good motor, there are a lot of older WRs still running around. A fast reliable 250F is a major engineering challenge, especially in this economy for a small company. Sure it would be great for have an in house GG motor but probably not worth the risk right now for them. If Cannondale Motorsports adopted this philosophy, they might still be around today.

Check out the new Sherco 2.5i http://s412.photobucket.com/albums/pp204/FMBikes/

Is this a Yamaha motor?

I hope it's fuel injected.
I had a WR250 and got rid of it due to jetting issues.

There is a certain art to setting up that FCR accel pump. The JD kit works well. I don't think this bike would be a big hit in more open, fast, sandy areas like any 250F. Even here in the southern NJ sand you have to work them harder, but they get the job done.

The WR250 would do well on the Michigan trails. Unfortunately, there are not many 2T GG's in Michigan, let alone taking the leap to a 4T 250. Granted, the Yamaha motor is proven technology, but most around here would just go with the Yamaha bike to begin with.

GasGas would need some "good" incentives to persuade buyers to their bike.
Need 6 speed tranny.
Need EFI.
Need to be street legal.
Need 2 suspension options (standard & full Ohlins).
Offer a large bore (290/300) upgrade from factory.

I've been thinking about a 4T 250 or 2T 125/200 as my next bike. So, I consider myself a good candidate. However, without some of the upgrades over the standard Yamaha, I don't see the real benefit to me... This is coming from a loyal GG rider.

A question that I have is regarding warranty...
If you have engine problems, who is covering warranty. Yamaha is technically design responsible, but they could force all warranty to be GasGas. Then, GasGas would have to acquire parts from Yamaha and forward them to dealers. I could see this as a potential issue. Each company pointing their fingers at each other, not wanting to pick up the warranty costs, while the customer waits patiently to just get his/her parts.

The last time I bought a new Yamaha the warranty ended when I loaded it into my truck. They didn't offer any warranty on their off-road products. Has that changed?

I hate to say I agree with most here, I would probably just opt for the Yamaha package rather than GG/Yamaha unless there was something that really made it stand out from the crowd, or maybe a 250F upgrade that would only be made available to the engines being installed in GG bikes.

I don't see any of that happening other than suspension options. Really, If you've ridden the new WR you would see that the trans is fine for its intended use. If you need more top speed get the 450. A 250F is about totally usable power in a bike that you can ride all day and not get as tired. You can be more aggressive and in some cases you have to, but thats a good thing.

Think about this, its a potential new bike with a minimal capital investment. Basically they had to adapt the frame, fuel tank, build an exhaust, and a few other details. I'm sure they still have to make some $$ back on the 4-stroke trials bike. I say build and race a few, then build a few more for demo duty.

The Sherco uses an in house motor, although it looks a little too much like the KTM, just like the 450.

That is a Sherco designed motor through and through. Fuel injected and NO kick starter, very light and small. They have been working on this motor for years before final production. Supposed to work very nicely and quite tourqey. That would be really nice in the Gas Gas frame as well.


As far as KTM's 250 motor goes so much of the reliability issues really falls on how it's ridden, maintained, air filter changes, timely valve adjustments and oil changes etc. I personally think it's one of their best motors and would have no issues owning one. I have a bunch of friends who have them and have had no problems but they have been "properly" cared for. It is a race engine after all. As far as overheating, put the $100 cooling fan kit on it and end of story. There is also so much aftermarket stuff available for these bikes it's off the charts and I just want a 6 speed tranny if I have the choice thank you.

I think the market for a Yamigas or Gasaha will be quite small and looked at as kind of an oddity for most people who are already reluctant to buy a GG. Why not just buy the much cheaper and yes, very nice Yamaha WR to begin with? Gas Gas needs their own developed motor IMO, it's part of what makes them who they are and what draws people to them. Glad I don't have to make this decision

GG would have to cover any engine warranty issues of course. You can't split up that kind responsibility.

Sure it would be a small market, the 2-stroke market here is small and maybe getting smaller. I'm not saying it would be my dream bike but it could be damn good, we shouldn't totally trash the idea before someone gets a chance to ride one. With the way the world economy is going to crap this company may be lucky to be in buisness. I just think they are doing the right thing from a business perspective right now. If the majority thinks like you Skidad then the plan is scrapped and loss is minimal, no big deal. Of course they should have their own motor, no argument there. Who knows, the in house GG 250F motor may be just about done, but if it turned out to be a timebomb it could bury them.

I know I've seen this before?http://www.scorpausa.com/
I know it is not the same type of bike, but another example of a Yamaha engine being used.

I think GG is off on the wrong track here. If I wanted a Yamaha I would go down to the Yamaha store and buy one. The 250f market is crowded with the most excellent KTM and Yamaha leading the pack with the street legal Husky also available.

I'd be a little concerned if I was a dealer ordering these machines. The GG300 has a decent following and some KTM riders have been picking them up. I just don't see a new 250f from GG making any inroads unless it has something really different to offer. The frame and suspension difference aren't going to do it IMHO. Street legal would grab some sales though.

Here's Sherco's 250F!
Found post on Thumper Talk:
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=719128

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/p...o-25i_1498.jpg

Here is some interesting reading. Aussie Dirt Bike Mag shootout between the KTM, Husky, Sherco and Yamaha 250 4 strokes for 09. The Honda was not available yet. I like that Sherco and with proper tweaks could be super sweet.

FWIW they mention the Yami motor needs a 6th gear and even though jetted perfectly was a good bit less fuel efficient than the others in the test. Very good overall power though.

http://www.adbmag.com/ContentItem.aspx?contentID=3994

I didn't want to poo-poo the idea, but just sticking a yamaha motor in it does nothing for GasGas. There is nothing unique to draw in buyers. The 250 4T market is overloaded as is. I agree with Glenn that it does lower investment cost but GasGas needs to only use the yamaha engine as a starting point. Perhaps the 5 speed tranny would work, but the 6 speed allows you to modify/fine tune final drive ratios with sprockets much better. I'm not going for top speed, but better spread of power.

IMO, GasGas should purchase unassembled engine components from Yamaha. They can install their own "300cc+ cylinder and piston kit", install the other Yamaha valve/cam components, and Yamaha lower case with tranny according to GG's spec. Then, replace the side covers with GG versions. This would be a true GasGas-Yamaha hybrid with a unique 300/350cc displacement. It's something that I would be willing to buy.

Is a Beta really a Beta? Or a KTM in a red dress with a linkage?

VERY different bike but decide for yourself. I would love to own one of these beauties.

http://psndealer.com/dealersite/imag...anbeta/rr1.jpg

Is that not a KTM powerplant in a Beta frame??

Yes. Old school KTM motor.

I've seen a lot of broken Betas at the National Enduros.:(

It couldn't have been from the KTM RFS engine. They've proven to be superb engines (20k+ hard miles are common).

Hey,GG used to use TM motors!

yamahahahahaha
 

If i wanted a jap bike i'd buy a jap bike, I say this is crap!!!!!!!
GG should build their own engine or stay with a Euro builder. I can't see it, even if they do top end suspension there are plenty of tuners doing the Yamaha's suspension and getting great results, why not just buy a Yamaha and tune it to yourself???

And regaurding KTM reliability, I've owned many of these hated orange bikes including some 4st models, and ride with many people that still ride them. I can say with complete confidence that KTM builds a bullet prof bike, as good as any and better than most. You can not buy a better bike than a KTM IMO. I prefer the GG but i don't think for one second it's a better bike. My reason for not riding orange is political as i'm big into road racing and KTM pulled some stinky crap in GP with the Roberts team, also some poor moves in enduro management over the years. Otherwise i would still be very happy with the orange machines.

I say NO to Yamaha.:D :D :D

Yes they did. I think this company survived as long as it did by playing it conservative, building on its strengths, and minimizing risk. This is no different. Don't forget GG is a SMALL company, nothing like KTM much less one of the Japaneese four. Let their marketing research play out. Also, no one said this was a replacement for their own motor, or they were giving up. According to the guys I talked to at the NYC show that were at the factory, the GG designed motor does exist, is quite small and powerful, but is not production ready.

I'd also add to the whats it gonna have that the yamaha won't question???
Maybe sell it as an upmarket 250f that yamaha wouldn't put together?? I'm currently looking at a 200 or 125 2t to replace my 300. If I got some ride time on a 250f and liked it I might go that route. If the gasser was a bit up market and had a little extra something that the yammie did not I might buy one. If it was similar to the yammie and priced the same I still might buy one. right now I'm still leaning to the 2t. ktm 2t is at the head of the pack at the moment .... 2t's are less work to take care of.

off subject.. if you want a 200 the Gasser is quite stronger in the motor and much more "flickable" I have had both

I suspect that this bike will attract current or past GG owners who like the chassis, but also like 250F style power. It doesn't sound like they would build a lot of them, maybe enough to fill a niche market. Sure the average buyer on the street is likely to choose the Yamaha, its a safe bet. Just like the KTM herd mentality, "If most people have one it must be best".

Speaking of KTM, there building a small sports car, the "X-Bow" or "Cross Bow", with an Audi engine. One could say, "Why not just buy a real Audi?"

It will be interesting to see how this plays out both here and in Europe.

GMP is spot on here. Husky and TM are dropping major time and money into making new lightweight 250 4T motors. Sherco took 3 or 4 years to get out their 250f. GG has mitigated their risk and decided to concentrate their efforts in what they do best. This move should get 250f Gassers into the hands of the small group of GG riders that are really willing to put their money down on a 250f. In my opinion, most all of the guys attracted to the GasGas brand and no-nonsense riders that prefer a 2 banger.

With the world's economy in shambles, we should be lucky that Gas Gas is giving us an option of having a 4 stroke 250.

Maybe the Yamaha 250 motor is a stop gap so they can make some money to put back into their R+D program.

What's the biggest "problem" on Jap bikes?
Everything around the motor falls apart after a few races.
So having a Jap motor in a Gas Gas
chassis is having the best of both worlds.

Exactly...

I don't quite understand why some of you guys are so negative about simply having another choice.

As long as there's no Yamaha branding on the engine, I'd be okay with it. I would hope the price is significantly cheaper than the true GasGas thumpers. Hell, it shouldn't be more than the 2-strokes either.

Wouldn't mind adding a 250f to the stable. My dream: GasGas EC300R, FSR515, 250f and a Raga 300. That'd be one nice looking garage!

I need to throw my two cents in. Have you guys ridden the new alum. four stroke yamahas? They suck "IMO" in the woods. Top heavy, and long steering POSs. I owned one for 2 1/2 seasons and I absolutley could not get that bike to handle technical woods riding to same my life. Suspension was great and motor was outstanding. You could blitz whoops and rip through bermed up corners all day long. Put that bike into tight nasty woods section and man, it felt like it was literally 2'-0" longer then my gas gas's. It also had that heavy feel to it and it was the YZ version. Even my 515 out carved my 250F Yamaha! (It did everything easier except whoops.) If you do nothing but ride high speed stuff with lots of sand, moto, and whoops, you should be on the Yami. If you are a hardcore offroad (woods rider) the choice is clear. Gas Gas. Just my opinion. I think it is a safe option for now (by Gas Gas). I just hope that if they do release this bike, it has a hydro clutch. That was another BIG complaint of mine. Also, it would be cool if they included some type of billet plug to delete the electric start if you so choose. My 250F was a vary easy starter with the kicker - Hot or Cold.

Brian