2019 GP edition is out
 

[IMG]https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4897/...0e1d9f48_b.jpg0fb84ab0-390f-482f-b29c-01c34f57c909 by andrew wiley, on Flickr[/IMG]

Nice! :)

Hmmm, yum yum...:)

The GP is one of the best looking bikes on the market today.

One is going on order asap :D

How long before we see a Fuel Injected 2 Stroke Gas Gas?

2020 model? :rolleyes:

I'm not blaming Gas Gas for holding onto carbs, it seems sensible to let the other manufacturers do the research and development, then make the move once they know more!

What I really like about the fuel injected 2 strokes is that not only do they control the fuel/air mixture but also the amount of 2 stroke oil that's injected into the engine, so at low rpm/low load the oil mixture can be as low as 1:100 then at high rpm/high load increase to around 1:33.

So I can only assume this reduces oil consumption, smoke, emissions and spooge, etc.

Just hope they can make all the extra electronics, etc. withstand everything that hard enduros can throw at them.

One of the primary reasons why I bought a GasGas is that it isn't fuel injected. It also isn't 2,000 pounds more expensive due to the addition of EFI.

KTM have a long track record of using their customers for product testing and their EFI models are still a long way from sorted. They have also created a bike that is now probably more complex than a 4 stroke.

KTM is also having lots of problems with TPI. A large portion of the oil pumps are failing without warning and ruining engines. I don’t want it for at least 3 or 4 more years while KTM, TM, and Sherco get it all sorted.
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Ouch, that looks nasty...:eek:

OK, let's assume that's genuine, I mean the hour meter is on the same bike as the piston...

I have many questions...

Was the owner at fault? Did he put oil or the correct oil in the oil tank?

What caused this? Did the oil pump simply stop working?

How many engines have failed in this way?

Is there any monitoring of the oil pump within the bike's electronic system?

I used to work as a CNC machine engineer, very expensive laser cutting machines. Many times I arrived at a customer's machine and had to figure out why a machine had failed with a view to giving feedback to design engineers to prevent it happening again. Sometimes it takes some detective work!

However, if this is genuine and it's happening to a large percentage of engines then of course it's not acceptable.

I was just reading a thread on the ktmforum.co.uk

It seems that KTM recommend the oil pump to be replaced after 80 hours and cost is GBP 120...:(

https://www.ktmforum.co.uk/off-road-...p-failure.html

I don't have anything against technology.. You can't dispute the advantages that they offer. I wouldn't want an inefficient fuel guzzling carby fed vehicle as my daily driver!! However that is the point...

My dirtbike isn't my daily.. I don't give two hoots about it's emissions. I want simplicity. I want it to be cheap, easy, reliable...

In saying that, many mates are getting around on fuel injected 4T's without issue. The occasional dirty injector/filter causing some starvation issues, but nothing too bad.. 2T technology will probably get to the same point.. but I don't think it's there just yet.. The old carb is pretty tried and true. I'll change at some point.. but not just yet. Leave it for the Jones' to do the r&d.

The Tpi technology will deffo get there but at the expense of many riders pockets, I have been told of pistons needing changing at 20 hrs because they are running so lean, the ones I have tried feel disconnected, no feeling of reaction to throttle amount... so while I can keep a carb I will, even at the expense of being ripped by my mates for buying a gasgas..........

The problem with the KTM TPI is not the fuel injection but the oil injection. It's a crude lash-up of a solution that reminds me of their approach to 2 stroke starter motors.

The USP of the 2 stroke has always been that it is a simple motor principle run on pre-mix oil-in-petrol fuel. Cheap to own and maintain and easy for home mechanics to keep on top of. Its Achilles Heel is that forgetting the oil is fatal.

KTM has then gone and produced the worst of both worlds by making the 2 stroke engine as complex as a 4 stroke whilst leaving the oil injection side prone to all kinds of issues. The initial bikes had oil tanks make of brittle plastic that cracked and dumped the oil as there was no vibration damping for the bolts. Then the rider needs to check the oil feed pipes for air or the pump stops delivering oil and needs bleeding. Or the oil pump just gives up. All this with the rider only realising what's going on when they hear expensive metal on metal noises.

Oh, I nearly forgot.... it has added 30% to the price of a 2 stroke KTM. Result!

The solution may be either to inject premix or for some kind pre-injection buffer where the oil and petrol are mixed immediately prior to injection to allow the oil ratio to be varied to match the engine load and reduce emissions.

If the oil pump is root cause of the problems and it's difficult to monitor it's operation, not able to give any warning, then surely just reverting back to a Premix setup would be a good solution.

It'll be interesting to see what KTM's solution is, it would be a terrible embarrassment to have to admit a design error.

It would be good to get an idea of how many engines have been affected, what percentage, but I guess KTM will be keeping that very tight to their chest.

If this oil pump situation is as bad as it sounds, then I guess GasGas are happy they decided to wait. Who knows, GasGas may decide to go with FI but stick to Premix and not bother with oil injection, tank and pump.

Beta went half and half with a carburetor and oil addition via a pump. Not without problems, particularly with air in the oil feed lines. At least you could block off the oil fed and revert to pre-mix.

One thing you can say is that the Betas do run pretty well and at oil ratios around 1:100 on low engine load so emissions are improved over straight pre-mix. The oil side still seems to be the weak link.

I don't know if you could use an existing petrol injector to inject pre-mix as I imagine the oil affects the density and mist qualities of the fluid. Perhaps you might need something more like a diesel injector. That's another area of product development and cost.

You can’t run oil through the injector. It’s just too thick and won’t go through the tiny holes need to build fuel pressure

I am a member of a TPI owners group on FB and the failed oil pump problem shows up weekly. It’s not the only issue they are having either. They are having issues with the oil tank cracking at a seam. Also The mapping from the factory is all over the place, some are super lean, some so rich they won’t run. My buddy has a Husky TPI with an RK Tek and that bike flat out rips but I still worry the oil pump is going to fail on him


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Here’s a few more screenshots.
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Oil tank cracking on a seam... surely that's pretty easy to fix, ask the company that manufactures the plastic tank to move the seam to a different position and or add rubber mounts to take any stresses out of the tank, then send replacement tanks out to all dealers.

What's the big deal with the oil pump? I've owned many road going 2 strokes from the 1980's and 1990's that use a mechanical oil pump to deliver 2 stroke oil. Never had any problems with the oil pump failing or air in the oil feed lines.

Any comments from KTM?

Not sure about photos on social media showing pictures of mashed up pistons and barrels, they look very spectacular but don't tell us much as we don't know what happened before the event. It would interesting to know about failure rates, how many of these engines have failed? That would give people a better understanding of how serious the problem is.

Of course, with all these stories flying around, I wouldn't be rushing out to buy a TPI bike. As people have said before, the research and development should be done in the factory's R&D department not by the customers.

Is KTM paying to repair or replace these blown engines or are they just pointing their long suffering customers to the local scrap metal dealer?

It is interesting that Beta are offering a Steve Holcombe Replica to celebrate his recent World Enduro championship that runs on pre-mix. They obviously don't trust their own oil injection system when the chips are down and the company's reputation is at stake. There were lots of stories going around when TPI came out that the KTM and white-painted KTM riders refused TPI and stuck to carbed bikes for as long as they could.

A friend of mine has a Beta 300 2017 its done 70hrs ish, out on a ride and it seized solid, we got it back and after investigation the diodes that control the pump failed because of water getting to them, he went back to the dealer and hats off to them they paid 75% of the cost to repair the bike, he has now disconnected the pump and started running on premix...
Talking to a KTM tech guy at the dirtbike show and he was telling me they are going to see major improvements of the TPI system on the new bikes in June next year, it seems to be a bit like the issues they had with the 350s when they released them first off, I had 2 x 350s that kept failing due to injection problems, but to fair the 2018 I have just sold was very good but it didnt suit me...

I have a riding buddy who cooked his Beta 300 due to an oil pump failure too! No fun for anyone!

Currently the 2stroke has an advantage over 4 in that its simple,easy and relatively cheap to maintain,these sorts of issues dont help and should have been sorted b4 release.Keep it simple,thats the advantage.Adding complexity and cost doesnt help the accessibility of the sport.And i keep hearing riders say they prefer the power delivery of the carb anyway,esp in the techy stuff.
Also,plenty of us enjoy working on our bikes ourselves,without the need for specialised equipment/tools.eg.Jakobi,who has been tinkering with his brand new 250 for months and has yet to start it:D

And that's the truth right there! In saying that with time diagnostic equipment does become more freely available.

With my car I can easily check fault codes, and if I wanted to invest a few dollars could start modifying my ecu doing some road testing and tuning as well. In saying that, it's taken a long time for that to become affordable to the home tuner.

No 2019 gp
 

Had one on order and was told by dealer no 300 gp will be produced until July and may be a 2020 release...?..

it is true...

For the USA No GP'S OR 200'S

WTAF?! Not again GG.

Are there any 18+ EC/XC200s(as in were any actually produced)?
Torrot is gonna have to up the factory capacity if they want to gain market share. Bikes late to the market or not getting there at all was GG's downfall last time around! Be a shame for them to start slipping after they've made such good inroads the past 18 months!

Is this related to the fire they had?

No. Supplier issue.

Any particular part/s you know of GGM out of curiousity?

If I remember, issue was with the cylinder.
The 200s were to be a North America bike only.

Ahh yep sounds about right obviously something to do with the cylinder or head seeing as the rest is the same as the 250/300. Was referring to the GPs though.

Interesting on the 200s as GG AUS website has them listed for sale but not available.

Two years in a row. TBH I'm getting quite annoyed by it. :(
The plan was 2 bikes, same brand, 300 + 200. Father and Son, Share spares etc.

We took a gamble on the 19's being real, knowing the 18 was never going to materialise and bought my XC. If I end up having to go Beta for the 200 once his legs are full sized, I'll be following brand with a Beta 300 and retro fitting some KYB.

TL/DR. It IS costing GG sales.

UHM, A member here reviewed his new 2019 200 His name or handle is ylisuutari from the Neitherlands i believe .Who has a 200 .so this is not a North American bike ONLY!!!!!And IT'S being sold in the EU!! Cylinders are all made by S3 200 thru 300 so please explane how this was the issue... Getting back to last year's fire ?? that prevented importation. So very strange that only the 200 got charred.. I have a hard time believing any of this not to mention the article from Miki Arpa. Who stated the 200 is dead!!!!

Whoa, I somehow missed that. Got a link so I can read it? That would be a real bummer.

And for Europe no 2019 GP 300 either :mad:

ylisuutari is from Finland.
Not a lot of 200s have been sold in Europe either. None in Norway so far. I have friends waiting eagerly.

GG UK are advertising a 2019 200:

http://www.gasgasuk.com/bikes/

GG ought to promote the easy to ride characteristics of the 200, it's kind of like the 2t version of the 250cc 4t enduros that doesn't punish throttle control errors like the bigger bikes.

With regard to the TPI KTMs, I had a quick go on one and it was good to ride, very smooth and felt light. I guess they will sort out the engine management and oil pump problems. What would concern me is the longeveity of components with the bikes being so light. Probably fine for competitive riders that buy a new bike every year. Second hand, no thanks.

In the UK, for the 1st time in 12 years, not only are there still KTM 2 strokes left in dealer showrooms but also KTM UK has discounted the TPI models by 20% to try and sell them.

Usually, all the new 2T models have been sold by the end of October and 4T models are being discounted heavily.

Meanwhile, used carburetted 2T enduro model values have never been higher.......

Regarding the GG 200s, I haven't seen one yet in the UK (I haven't seen a Beta 200 either) but I have heard that the GP models are due to arrive very soon. I shall be seeing the UK importer at the weekend so I shall ask him about it.

200s have never been particularly popular in the UK as there is no defined class for them in competions. You may as well ride a 250 in the same class and benefit from the better power.