how to fix MOST clutch problems + cr250r clutch conversion.
 

ok, i figured i'd put all the data in one place.



cr250r clutch pack conversion:

stock gg friction plates: 2.85mm (some are 2.9mm)
stock gg steel plates 1.5mm

use honda cr250r 1994-2007

cr250r friction plates 3mm
cr250r steel plates 1.5mm

cr250r plates, clutch stack height = 30mm
gg plates, clutch stack height = 28.95mm

no mods need to be done to use cr250r steel plates.

to use cr250r clutch friction plates:
you can mill the inner clutch hub spacer (gg #ME25632011). You want to mill the one between the hub and the basket (not the one behind the basket) to between 1.80mm and 1.95mm (stock is 2.8mm - 3.00mm depending on year?) thick - mine is 2mm - and it drags slightly. i fixed this with 2 stock gg friction plate in the mix. you can adjust the clutch drag by mixing and matching stock and cr250 frictions. with bike running or not, hot or cold, i can put bike in gear, pull clutch and push bike around....with stock clutch, it would drag badly, and would not allow this. keep in mind there's a fine line between dragging and slipping. if your stack height gets too thin, it will slip. but when it's just right it's perfect...

if you don't want to mill the spacer, i believe suzuki part #08211-22423 is already 2mm thick (confirmed 2mm thick by bitoman) kawasaki also has a clutch spacer about 2mm thick. do some research and you will find it.

other options:
get thinner steels from rekluse. this is more expensive than using a complete cr250r clutch pack.

if you do convert to cr250r clutch, be nice and make sure you paint marker 'cr250r' inside the clutch cover so the next guy who owns your bike doesn't end up scratching his head when his brand new gg clutch pack won't work...

dragging clutch solutions:

lighter oil - i use amsoil 0w-40 and maxima mtl xl (75w) - both work nicely. i have been told fully synthetic atf is even more slippery, and may help dragging..but atf has no shock modifiers as far as i know...

lower your stack height - if you clutch stack is 29mm or more, it will drag - not enough free space when clutch is pulled. you can decrease your stack height by using thinner steels - rekluse sells them - it only takes .1 - .2mm less or so to go from dragging to slipping.... try one 1.4mm steel first and see if it works..

check your hub and basket for wear on the fingers/grooves. if there's wear you can draw file them smooth - this only works once or twice - after that too much material is gone and the clutch will chatter/break plates

check your steel plates - any warpage can cause drag.

Squealing/Chirping clutch


as shown elsewhere, there are at least 3-4 different baskets - http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8486

i found on my inner hub, that there were only 6 holes drilled in it. not 18 like the one pictured in link above. i drilled 12 additional holes, and my clutch is significantly smoother/easier to slip/and makes absolutely no noise.


other stuff:


make sure your cush drive inserts are not worn out, and no rivets are missing. there should be no play between the primary gear and the basket... i drilled my rivets out and tapped in new screws instead of rivets. i used grade 8 5x14 button head sockets, that i screwed in from the backside of the basket.. and at least blue loctite them....

if you are breaking clutch plates, there's a couple of possible reasons - jim senegal suggests using fsr450 springs (heavier). other reasons could be worn out friction 'fingers' leave much gap and hammer away at basket fingers, and using friction plates that have worn too thin.... if you break a plate, the plate pieces will migrate to the lowest spot in the case, which is under your shift selector scorpion - and you will not be able to shift down......

i'm sure there's more questions, but these are the ones i keep seeing come up..

Nice work Stainless, that should cover a lot of questions.
Great write up.
Cheers
Mark

Do you think that these mods would allow for the the use of a Rekluse-Pro series clutch from a cr ?

i don't see why not. when you mill the thrust washer, it makes the clutch pack identical (aside from primary gear) to cr250r.. you may need 2 gaskets to clear the rekluse, but i'd think that would be it..

with the rekluse pack, you can use their thinner steels to achieve the same thing i believe - without needing to mill anything. you just need to loose about 1mm of total stack height from the cr250r clutch to work..... i've learned from playing with so many dry clutch ducs, which have many similar issues, that it's all about stack height...


if you can find the kawasaki or suzuki washer that fits, you would need to make no permanent mods to your thrust washer to try it out...i haven't checked the suzuki part number to see if it's correct.

on second thought i am not sure. i haven't investigated the clutch throwout bearing assembly on a cr250r. if they are similar it will work.... or you may need to get a gasgas throwout bearing spacer (if there is such a beast) from rekluse.

+1 Excellent info

That's good info. I'm going to look into it.

suzuki 08211-22423 is 2mm thick.

Id be interested to hear how you go on this :D

I just recieved my bike late last week,11' 6 days 250. I'm still prepping the bike, regreasing everything and adding all the odds and ends to get the bike ready for the up coming racing season. After I get the jetting sorted out I'll try and look into this clutch conversion.

so that line of BS that rekluse used to explain why the only option is the 900 $ setup, is simply that, bullshit

I wish I had seen this sooner, I woulda just put in a dynaring or the cheaper rekluse EXP

this core exp setup changes the disk's and the throwout setup and puts in a new center, it's a pretty complicated setup compared to the dynaring or just an exp

Hey stainless I dont supose you know of a step by step to get to my basket to inspect these rivets? I have never had a clutch to pieces but im almost certain this is the problem with my bike.. I am planning on using m5 bolts like you have.. Do you have any photos or any more info would be extremely appreciated cheers.
luke

pm sent..


sources of rattles:

loose motor mounts (especially the top one) - this usually makes massive vibes when rev'd - not really a rattle. feels like your clutch is gonna explode - you can feel the centrifugal force of the motor when motor mounts are loose.

chain slap

pv not pre-loaded properly, so it rattles at low rpm's - kinda sounds like chain slap.

Thanks stainless I've had the power valve to bits with new bearings and a soak in an unltra sonic parts washer smoothe as a whistle now mounting bolts are torqued up correct top ends been re nikasil and new piston/rings it makes the noise like a ting/clang while reving low hopefully this will be the cause cheers luke

did you preload the pv actuator arm? it could be the pv slapping around..

My 2011 was making an odd rattle on deceleration. I figured the top end was due or something. A new set of O-rings on the exhaust cured the rattle.

The powervalve is fine as far as I know.. what do you mean by pre load the actuator arm? The rattle has been there since before the top end rebuild

there's a bunch of threads around for it.... if your actuating arm is not preloading the pv, it will and does rattle.

Good info here...how about a sticky ..??

Ok.finally got time to fit the Tusk Honda CR250 clutch kit to my 07 300EC today. I used the Suzuki thrust washer behind the inner hub as well.The first thing I realised was that the steel plates would not go on the inner Hub :( WTF ! the splines have a slightly different angle, anyway No big deal, I then fitted the OEM steels with the Tusk fibres and put everything back together. As I am waiting on some new water pump parts I cant fire here up, but I checked the clutch actuation by turning the rear wheel in second and everything looks promising.Fully released the engine turns, about half way engaged the clutch was just starting to slip. so when it is back together I will let you all know he she goes. It has to be ready and right by the 25 of Feb as we have an Australian offroad championship round at Dungog (Forest 300) :)

Ollie

Yeehaaahhh!! went for a ride today (only short as I live in Suburbia) The Tusk CR250 fibres worked almost perfectly. I had a a very small amount of drag when I had the clutch fully pulled in and reving the engine. This may be due to the fingers on the basket needing touching up with a draw file as they are a bit Notchy or could be that Im using Mobil1 5wt synthetic, Dunno but down a couple of fire trails fully cranked I had no slipping or bad noises at all. By the time I got home the clutch drag was all but gone. The leaking waterpump isue was due to a worn w/Pp bearing so that was easily fixed.
Overall Im a happy camper, thanks for the tips and info parted onto this choice Forum.:)

Ollie

huh I wonder....
 

Great thread, thx to everyone.

Since I bought my gasser my enduro-ized '05 CRF450R has been sitting dormant in my garage. I bought one of the last Revloc dynarings for this CRF the week Revloc shut their doors. This thread got me wondering if it would fit. Well, the Barnett clutch kit for my CRF is the same part number as the one stainlesscycle references for the CR250R. AND I tried the frictions/steels from the Honda and the steels are exactly identical to the gasser but the frictions are a little wider (measure 3mm CRF instead of 2.78 Gasgas) I will have to try the Revloc in the gasser and see if I can get it working.

Glad to hear the tusk kit works, that's what I have been eyeballing. I will have to get the Suzy washer.

My only question is for stainlesscycle: If I did the math right, you have 7 frictions and 6 steels. In my 2007 EC300 I have 8 frictions and 7 steels (I have counted numerous times!) and my stack height measures an avg of 32.5mm thick. Any idea why so different?

Thanks! great info! I was wondering if I could use a cr clutch as gasgas has other parts for cr that fit..:)

I'm still waiting to see if the cr rekluse exp will work in the gasser.

I thought there was another clutch thread where someone used a cr rekluse and it worked, maybe it was on thumpertalk

Honda autoclutch works in the gasser - here's proof
 

I dropped the Revloc autoclutch (dynaring) (out of '05 CRF450R, made for the '02-'11 models) into my '07 EC300 this week. It works. Beautifully. And Yes, the clutch lever still works normally. You have to create the gap so that it is just right, which isn't hard to do, but takes some tinkering with different thickness washers. Too thin/narrow of a gap and the bike will pull too hard at idle. So start narrow and progressively make it thicker/wider (the gap) and get the bike to have just a tiny pull at idle, and drive with just slight throttle. This will make clutch engagement prompt and maximize life. But make the gap too big and the autoclutch won't engage the clutch pack/pressure plate, and you will have to rev up high to get the autoclutch to engage (this would worsen slipping, wear, and heat generation). Once you understand this simple principle of the autoclutch, creating the perfect gap is not something nebulous, but the response you want from your clutch.

If you do this mod with a drop in autoclutch, make the gap adjustment (with washers) on the OUTBOARD side of the throwout bearing (the THIRD way to adjust gap that I mention in the first video). It is just much easier.
Also I just put new clutch springs in (stock from Gofasters). The old ones were sacked out. If you do this mod, you want firm clutch springs.

Installation video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsqKrh8fmZk

Testing video:
http://youtu.be/VXHHjnhIU3U

Comments from anyone else that has done this install? Or that hasn't done this mod for that matter?

This Should Be A Sticky

See post #42(link below) fo specs on using a CR clutch pack with a Gasser Rekluse EXP.

http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/sho...t=15126&page=5

I just did the conversion using the Tusk Clutch Kit for a 2000 cr250, special washer and Maxima MTL 75w lightweight oil. The best $87 I ever spent.
Now she can pull the front up in all gears.:D

Does anyone know why Rekluse does not make a specific EXP 2.0 or 3.0 Ring for the Gas Gas, if these little fixes is all it takes? My understanding before this thread, was the Gasser basket couldnt take the auto clutch abuse.:confused:

I'm running a Rekluse basket with my Rekluse auto clutch. I highly reccomend the Rekluse basket, it silences the squeal unless you are running two gears too high.

Gotcha! I really wanted to avoid paying $900 for the full blown Rekluse. I'll stick with the old fashion way of doing it . Thanks for the heads up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So the clutch has 8 friction plates, and 7 steels...

Standard GG clutch

(2.85*8)+(1.5*7) = 33.3, where did 28.95 come from?

CR250R clutch

(3*8)+(1.5*7) = 34.5, where did 30 come from?


So 34.5-33.3 = 1.2, so if the spacer is originally 3mm, it should be reduced to 1.8, cool... BUT!

My clutch hub to basket spacer measures at 2.5mm?? Not the 2.8 or 3.0 quoted... where might this have come from? I'm going to surface grind my spacer to 1.8mm at work tomorrow and see where I end up :).

I can't argue with your math but I have done this conversion and it works.... even with my Rekluse (which BTW didn't come with the correct spacer I needed) it is possible that the thrust thickness isn't a tight tolerance??? My Suzuki washer I got wasn't 2.0mm either. I think the point that we are modifying and with this info there is a baseline, you'll get it and you'll probably like it :)

Machined the spacer to 1.85mm. Fitted the plates, no drag, no slip. Amazing! Managed to male it groan though, fast get away from standing start with supermoto gearing and castrol mtx 80w. Only seemed to do it when very hot.

I used the Rekluse basket to stop the occasional groan that I had when hot and under heavy load

I'm in the process of trying a drop in CR450 Rekluse EXP 3.0 into my 05 EC 250. Were you able to continue using the e-clip that retains the throwout into the pressure plate? When I add washers to the throwout, not enough of the tip is exposed to get the clip back on.

Just to confirm, are you using the stock needle bearing and the hardened washer in your washer pack?

Thanks!

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...psbqx6mmru.png

Just to be clear, I see that GG calls what it a "Clutch Pin"... #16.

If I add washers on top of the needle bearing and hardened washer, the e-clip won't go on.

you are exactly right, you have to ditch the e clip....when I took the auto clutch out of my Honda I noticed my Honda didn't have any clip holding the clutch pressure plate on. so yes you are right there is not enough room to get the e clip back on but after almost 2 years it still doesn't seem to be a problem.

also yes, be sure to keep the hardened washer against the needle bearing. Your shim washers will go outside or outboard of the hardened washer.

sorry bro I can't remember if the Revloc extends above the basket fingers or not. my guess is the EXP is a bit thinner than the Revloc.

the only issues I've noticed is after taking the clutch apart a few months ago was that the clutch steels had some mild to moderate heatwear marks on them. I wasn't too worried because they still measured within spec and were not warped, and this was an old clutch pack that have been on the bike for a long time. I think the clutch steel wear is a combination of an old clutch pack, taking clutch steels and clutch fibers out of the clutch pack (which likely will increase the wear on the ones that are left in the pack), and also of me lugging and bogging my bike all the time on hill climbs.

at the same time that I installed the auto clutch, I also installed new clutch springs. These were the factory ones from gofasters. the Barnett clutch springs might be stiffer and might get you a more solid engagement.

when you're doing your testing make sure to check the inside of the clutch cover to see if the pressure plate is rubbing against it. you may need to adjust your shims/clutch pack accordingly, or even add a second gasket to the clutch cover. I didn't have to do this fortunately but I think this is why some of the rekluse kits come with a larger clutch cover.

I found shims on google that had *very close* to the same OD and ID of the stock hardened washer, and then ordered a couple different sizes (thicknesses) to give me some adjustment options. THIS is what made the adjustment easy, at least for me.

good luck with your endeavor! I'm excited to hear about the results.

Thanks for this! Your guidance made perfect sense...

I got my EXP 3.0 running. I am running 5 frictions and 5 steels. Gap is 1.0mm. When I was set to 1.35, It was too much, no autoclutch engagement. I am using the medium (factory spring setup) on the auto clutch. It still takes a little more RPMs that I prefer for my liking, so I'm going to play with the gap and springs a little more.

$399 was WAY better than dropping $899 on the Core EXP.