Another KYB SSS Thread - 2013 EC250R
 

So after my Marzocchis were confirmed to be eating themselves *crying eyes* I started looking into feasable options. Where to go, what to do. TTX/KYB/Showa/WP? I've always been fond of KYB. Quality Japanese products, build quality, knowledge base, and parts availabilty. All what you want in suspension components. I considered the TTX carts, but they are a discontinued line (little support) and I'd still be dealing with questionable quality of the Marzocchi outers/crap coatings.

So, KYB SSS it is. I spent 2 full days reading, researching, speaking with those in the know (Thanks Glenn!) and chasing listings on ebay trying to get info from sellers (none helped) and find the right forks at the right price. By some amazing feat I asked on another forum if anyone could measure up their honda gear. A mate I once assisted with jetting adv jumped aboard and took some measurements and we were in progress. A few pms back and forward and he explained how he ditched his PSF for a set of SSS. Confirmed the models, offsets, measurements, everything I needed. He checked his records and found the ebay seller he purchased through and told me they had none on hand atm. Next PM theres a link to a new take off set from a 2012 YZ250F - PERFECT condition, and cheaper than most the used sets I've been watching. Snaffled up on the spot. So thats step one done!

Now my findings prior to buying - Variables in the KYB SSS range.
12+ 250F = 54 upper OD, 32mm lugs
10+ 450F = 54 upper OD, 32mm lugs
08 - 11 250F = 56 upper OD, 32mm lugs
08 - 09 450F = 56 upper OD. 32mm lugs
06 - 08 All = 56 upper OD, 35mm lugs
12+ WR450F = 56 upper OD, 35mm lugs

Axle clamp offsets - hard to get the verdict on, but the anodized ones are certainly 32mm from fork center to axle center. The Marzocchis are 35mm.
Triple clamps (YZ250F) Earlier models were all 25mm offset with larger upper. 2012-13 moved to a 22mm offset triple (same as stock Gas Gas). If I need to fo back to 25mm I'll probably need to source the whole clamp assembly like others have done, fab up some stops, and also shim out the upper mount.

So what effect does that have? The smaller lug will effectively move the front wheel back 3mm, increasing trail. While this adds stability to the bike and make it less inclined to change direction, the most noticable effect will be tip in and feel when laid over. It may want to tuck, and take more active riding to control. It may work well with the 2013 chasis, or it may make it feel dangerous. I won't know until I ride it. It'll be what I try first though, with the backup plan sourcing a complete triple.

I still need to finalise the transactions and am hoping that things run smoothly in that department. I still need to arrange for an oversize brake carrier (#POW106), some custom wheel spacers, and an axle from somewhere. Steve 'twowheels' may be of assistance here, but I'll also look into some Honda applications too.

Geez, you don't muck around do ya mate?:D

Disclaimer. This is going from what my research has shown up. Not all is confirmed and some could be wrong. Double check anything any chance you get.

I was expecting a long haul spending months waiting to pounce on the right set. I'm sitting here going through parts fiches confirming details too. Its enough to drive a man mad!

You've been mad for awhile!!!:eek:

You're a mad scientist sir, I'll be watching this closely. :cool:

And so here I was thinking I'll have to muck around working out the correct springs & shimstack for my SSS conversion, but there is likely to be a stream of info here better than my own (totally inept when it comes to suspension) muddling. I salute you.

Can't take the credit for it all. Glenn and Steve have been on the subject with their other bikes for some time now. Much of the leg work had already been done. Its just hard confirming details from year to year without having them sitting infront of you.

Valving wise their is a huge knowledge base. It shouldn't be too hard to get a setup in the ball park. The stock springs are .46kg/mm which is what I run on the old chasis. They should be close but I'll probably have to look at getting some preload off them. I'll research spring lengths and see what else I have here that could work. The stock valving being for a YZF will be too firm for sure. I'll have a stab at em before they see the bike.

Here's your 3mm back:
http://www.e-axle.com/default.asp

And, am I to understand that the 2012 YZ250F forks drop right into the 2013 triples, and you only have to deal with 3mm in the lug? That is good info to know, especially if the 2013 triples fit the 2011 (or other year) frames.

Phil, measure the upper and lower tubes on your 45mm Zokes (if thats what you have). Both my 2010 and 2013 Gas Gas triples measure up the same. The forks swap from one bike to another easy as. Only difference is in the spacers and axle as the Sachs lug sits inwards further than the Marzocchi.

I'd love someone to confirm the 45mm measurements if they could.

I need to spend more time comparing the overall geometry of the 2010 chasis vs the 2013. I won't know how the extra trail feels until I've tried it. I don't think I'd want any more tip in or activity in the turns on the 2010, but the 2013 feels much less flighty and doesn't corner as well imo. It may like it.

All of my zooks and wp's where interchangeable in the triples.

I had a local tuner confirm some WP measure 54/60. What I'm thinking is that Gas Gas actually only runs a single triple clamp on all their bikes, and the various 45mm/48mm configurations all clamp on the same outer diameters.

I was looking at the KYB SSS dropping into the 2013 GG triples, I must have misunderstood your measurements in the early posts.

I have 2011 gasgas 45mm zoke triples
2011 race 48mm zokes
2011 Sachs 48mm
BRP upper triple clamp.
The uppers all interchange.

The lower 45mm and 48mm gasgas clamps are different size. Not just bored out. But bigger OD and ID

Thats the info I was looking for. Thanks roverhybrids.

Still looking into info regarding axles. Have a mate measuring up a 2013 CRF450R with 2012 YZ250F forks for me after the weekend. I also need to confirm that he used the Honda axle and wheel spacers. I know he went to an oversized disk with carrier, while I plan to use the stock Gas Gas disc (and will require a YZ250F 260mm carrier).

Center line of fork to center line of fork on both our bikes is 190mm.

I'll need to source some smaller ID wheel bearings in order to run on the 20mm axle. Measuring up spacers to center the wheel will be an easy task, but if I can get away with finding an OEM setup that slips on it'll be even easier.

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps0215bddb.jpg

I'd be thrilled if you can find an off the shelf solution. I'm about to service my 48mm and am curious what might be found.

I'm hoping you don't find what I did. I've just finished cleaning mine thoroughly, revalved them again, and will continue to ride on them. I expect the damaged one to continue to wear but would be stoked if it stopped. They don't feel too different in action when filled with fresh oil, but if you have them pulled down the good one slides much nicer. At least I still have some nice stacks for these forks. Now for the next 6 months to revolve around KYB revalving.

Honestly, first service, there was some crud in the oil. Second same. I'm dreading my third oil change at 135ish hours. I wonder if it is even worth picking up a set of bushings. Regardless, I'm going to ride them totally into the ground but it would be nice to know there is a nifty backup.

I'm very curious about your thoughts regarding the change in trail. I love the bike's slow speed handling, but if it was a little more stable at speed without knifing excessively in gnar I'd be thrilled.

Jake have you not revalved those S3 s yet? What the blue blazers is going on man?

By crud you mean.. Sludge, alloy, dark oil? Its normal for the oil to break down and smell bad. Bit of sludge in the bottom isn't unheard of either. It was the alloy from the spring seat which I attribute to eating mine alive.

Honestly, the trail is a concern. While the theory dictates that a smaller offset (more trail) is more stable, the real world testing usually shows the bike to be better in the slow speed and tip in, but perhaps a little too active as the speed increases. Mostly knifing/over willing to continue turning when you want it to stand up. Think big drifts and how a well balanced bike will just settle and slide. Not enough trail and the bike will run wide, too much and it wants to tuck in. It also effects the weight on the front tyre and considering that I don't find the Gasser the kind of bike I really have to scoot right up the tank on often, it may be too much. Time will tell, and if its no good then I'm a bit shot for options. Stock Yamaha clamps for this fork are also 22mm offset same as the Gas Gas ones. I could go an earlier model and shim the upper clamps (or the e-axle).

I like the stock geometry of the Gas Gas, I think the 2012+ feels a bit more stable than the 2010. I never had issues with the 2010, so hoping I'll end up somewhere inbetween the two.

I was hoping you'd put the leg work in on this one ;) Yours are ready for testing.. Mine not so much.

Rake angle measured approx 27 degrees which is same as (and in approx range of, give or take a few fractions of a degree) most other current bikes. YZ250 YZ250F CRF, and also the Beta 2T range uses a 27 degree rake frame.

In comparison, alot of the 4T bikes are running a 32mm offset lug and 20mm triple clamps. The Beta 2Ts run a 35mm offset lug and 20mm triples. The ECs use a 35mm offset lug and 22mm triples.

Glenn reported the -3mm offset to be too much on the Beta, however given that the Gasser starts off +2mm ahead of the Beta it may work out being an overall improvement.

Thinking about my comments earlier about how I never scoot up the seat on the bike, I do find myself riding on the pegs, head well over the bars quite a bit though. I'm definitely not stressing over the change yet.

Sorry for being vague, dark oil with a hint of alloy. Though a fraction of what your picture showed.

I flushed it as best I could and the bushings didn't really show wear so maybe I'll be okay for a while.

Pah! Me? I should be riding it today, but I'm unable to due to poor planning (and a bit of bad luck ). Either way I kinda know what I don't like but I'm harder pushed to know how to fix it. Something easier on my elbows than my 45s and to not be deflected off greasy tree roots and we'd be a good way there.

I'll let you know what I'm thinking after I put some time in checking things. The thing I'm sure of is that the stock YZ valving is going to be too firm for my purpose. But maybe not too much. I'll sus out the stock setup and then put a few suggestions forward.

Comparing a geometry a bit more, have also been looking at the wheel bases of the typical 2T enduro/mx ranges.

Ktm 1482mm
Beta 1480mm
Gas Gas 1480mm
YZ250 1480mm
YZ250F 1466mm

Not sure that the actual wheelbase will make any noticable difference, and in any case I have a new chain on hand and was planning to move the rear wheel back some to add some leverage to the shock and see if it would track better on snotty uphills. It may be that my front wheel moves in 3mm and my back wheel moves back the same.

Also, the measurements are simply what each brand specify so could be some variance in to what point the actually measure. Also depends where the rear wheel is set in the blocks. Each value really could be +/- 10mm.

I have the OEM YZ125 forks with stock valving and springs.
It's not that bad. I weigh 190 with gear.
I do bottom out on the MX track.

What year forks? Quick check would put stock springs at .42kg/mm and I imagine the 125 would probably be setup a touch lighter than the 250.

The forks I'm getting have come from a 250F. I would say a heavier bike, but people won't be able to help reminding me that there probably isn't much in it between the Yamaha and Gasser. They'll be valved for more weight on the front end though, and coming with .46kg/mm springs which should be OK.

I'm running .44s in the Marzocchi and .46 in my previous TTX equipped. Should be good if I can get some preload off them.

On my 08' 250F SSS forks I went from .46 springs back to the stock for that yr .44 springs. I do like the .44 springs better (190lbs) but I also stay off the MX track.

Isn't it time you guys updated this post? Need a fix!

[QUOTE=J I have a new chain on hand and was planning to move the rear wheel back some to add some leverage to the shock and see if it would track better on snotty uphills. [/QUOTE]

I changed my final gearing from 13/50 to 12/48 which moved my rear wheel back about half an inch and the difference on trashy hill climbs was noticeably better.

i'll be watching this thread, as i still have those yzf triples and kyb hanging round.....

Still waiting.

I think I know where I'm going to go with them. Need to decide if I'll press new bearings into the gasser hub, or have spacers made up similar to the rear which sit in the inner race.

Really looking forward to replacing the Marzocchis. In the mean time I think I'm going to swap back to the TTX setup.

As the spacer is 2mm thick that is quite a workable size for a steel tube.you could make it just under 28 and a tight fit 20 and press it onto the axle against the closed end and make it stop 1/2 way into the far spacer so the floating fully works.

That is if the closed end is 28 or bigger which surely it is.

Bugger that would have been much easier- and reversable.

Good idea F5. We'll bounce this idea more when I get to it.

Forks should be arriving next week some time.
I have an axle from an 04 WR250F at my disposal (including front wheel and spacer). I was thinking I may be able to transfer the whole lot across, but thinking things through I will meet issues as the WRs use a 25mm offset lug so the brake carrier will still be out.

Working off this, I've found a better list of various KYB SSS forks and their dimensions.

YZ250F (02-06) 35mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250F (07-11) 32mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250F (12+) 32mm lug / 54mm upper clamp (fits stock 48mm triples).

YZ450F (03-07) 35mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ450F (08-09) 32mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ450F (10+) 32mm lug / 54mm upper (fits stock 48mm triples).

YZ250 (01-07) 35mm lug / Believe all use 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250 (08+) 32mm lug / Believe all use 56mm upper clamp.

WR250F and WR450F (02-13) 35mm lug - unsure which years inc SSS vs OC. Believe all use the 56mm upper clamping diameter.

So from that list, depending on what you want to achieve and whats available will depend whats required.

I intend on using the Stock Gas Gas 22mm offset triple clamps with the 12 YZ250F forks. The reduction in overall offset will be -3mm. If using forks with the larger upper OD, using KYB 25mm triple clamps will retain the stock geometry/overall offset.

Also, as I plan on using the Gas Gas front wheel which has a 260mm disc vs the YZF 250mm I will require an oversize caliper carrier for the particular forks (lug offset) that I will be using. Braking POW106. I have ordered one of these.

For the forks with the 35mm lugs the correct carrier is POW13.

The ideal solution IMO would be to source a set with 35mm lug from a late model WRF and have the upper triple clamped machined - I'm taking a risk with the -3mm offset for the ease of fitment. If the reduced offset ends up being too much I will be somewhat limited in my options as these late model Yamahas they come off all use 20mm offset triple clamps. I could source some older triples and shim the upper clamp. In my research I have read that many people would however sub out the stock 25mm offfset clamps for 22/22.5mm on the YZ250's for better handling.. I have also found the head stem angle to be similar between the 2 bikes, and that most new bikes run a similar angle with less offset. Glenn found the increased trail to be too much on his Beta 2T, however they already come standard with a 20mm offset clamp. Both bikes use a 27 degree steering rake angle.

I fitted some black polini fork guards for a YZ, but I didn't fit the std stickers that came with them. I took no measurements. Sorry.

So the new forks arrived today, and while I have been waiting I moved the Ohlins TTX/Sachs legs over onto the 2013 model to keep getting punished. The 2010 is sitting with clear triples waiting for some fitment.

Few pics of the forks. They are as described 'NEW'. Can still feel the stiction in the seals. No markings or wear visible other than where the axle and caliper were clamped. Good find and looking forward to moving on with the project.

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps38870348.jpg

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/s...psc66098fb.jpg

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/s...psbfda76ca.jpg

From the research I have done, stock valving will be way too firm. I'll follow that up in the next post.

nice, what did those set you back?

My first ride is tomorrow on stock springs and shims.

I just finished machining a set of upper GasGas triples for SwaziMatt - there's enough meat there to do that.