Ironman sprockets - damaged my engine??

[cal_tony]

I have heard stories on the TT site re. Ironman sprockets but they all had to do with the design of the bolt hole area and the problem that excessive flex at the bolt area caused sprocket bolt failure. Now I don't want to jump on any bandwagon saying there is a problem with these sprockets relative to things other than longevity. There was a recent post on this topic on the TT site and a few users expressed problems with bolt failures. From what I have seen of the Ironman design I could see how a misaligned rear sprocket could cause bolt problems. I have not used these sprockets but by and large everything I have read about them is that they have quite a following. So my comment relative to Ironman is just about what I've read.

My reason for posting is more about about what PEB commented on re. Blue locktite. For many brands of motorcycles their list of fixes include RED locktiteing the front sprocket and letting it dry overnight just to avoid countershaft and or seal failure. They recommend some on the nut( for those brands using a nut) but to use more on the sprocket and the spline.

A loose fitting CS sprocket from any Mfg is a recipe for problems. Although new CS sprocket may fit tight enough on a new spline without locktite, it would not be tight enough on a used spline.

If you read the Red locktite spec sheets you can see that it is made specifically to cure the problem of too much clearance between a sprocket on a spline.

I would recommend to anyone reading this topic to examine their CS sprocket and if it has even the slightest give to it to get out the RED and fix it now.

Tony

[PEB]

I have been using blue gasket maker to keep the clip in place, a rubber safety wire.

[rpduc]

I would recommend to anyone reading this topic to examine their CS sprocket and if it has even the slightest give to it to get out the RED and fix it now.

Tony

I have Ironman sprockets and a sloppy front. I can't say if it was tighter when I mounted it, but it is sloppy now.

I question whether Red Loctite would hold up under in that application but it might be worth a try. My question would be how does one center the sprocket on the splines as the Red Loctite hardens to assure you don't end up with an eccentric mount job?

[stay_upright]

Recieved a (quick) reply

Hello, sorry to hear of this problem, however it is not the sprocket that has caused your problem. Our sprockets are hard, true, but they are still not as hard as your counter shaft. Counter shafts on all modern dirt bikes are made from very hard gear material which is stronger than our sprockets. (Its hardness is about 59-60Rc on the Rockwell scale). We have front sprockets on thousands of different bikes all over the world, some on the bikes of world class off-road racers for the last 9 years. With this long history of use, combined with our own testing, there is no additional or abnormal wear caused to any counter shaft (on any model bike) from our sprockets.
We have many of our front sprockets on Gas Gas bikes, including some very skilled pro riders who attended the ISDE in Greece. (among other events) The "c" clip which holds your front sprocket to the shaft should be snug at initial install. If it is not, it should be replaced. A loose or worn "c" clip can produce a sliding movement of the sprocket on the counter shaft, this will greatly accelerate the wear on both the counter shaft, and the sprocket. For this reason, the "c" clip design is not an ideal securing method for a front sprocket.
In addition to a loose sprocket situation, one other thing often noted about Gas Gas is they tend to develop a leaky counter shaft seal. Is your seal leaking, or has your seal been leaking in the past? This condition creates a bad situation as it will hold abrasive material like sand to the area around the leak. This grit will eventually work its way between the sprockets and splines. It is more likely that a loose sprocket is the cause of your issue however.
We are very sorry to hear of your problem, we certainly hate to hear about a fellow rider experiencing down time. I can assure you however, this was not the fault of the sprocket. I will be happy to send you a replacement front sprocket so you have a new ready to go when you finish the rebuild. Please send me your shipping address. If you have further questions please let me know. Thanks very much, Nate D. Dirt Tricks 775-267-6361
2559 Precision Dr #4
Minden, NV 89423
USA

[GMP]

I doubt that would hold up, there is tremendous torque at that point. That stuff is made for more static retention like studs, and sometimes bearings with a questionable fit.

Clean the end of the shaft and compare the splines where the sprocket sits to the splines outboard of the circlip if you suspect wear.

[stay_upright]

To answer a few questions:

I was posting really to give people a heads up on what I think/thought was an issue and to see if any other people have the same problem. Looks like a few do though who knows if it's related to running ironman sprockets.

I used to run renthals/talon but they wear quick so I figured spend a bit more on an ironman and it should last much much longer.


Some questions of my own:

Is it abnormal to wear a countershaft in 4 years? I would have expected it to last the lifetime of the bike.

Am I correct in thinking I have to split the cases to replace it?

[Rick]

Seems to me that four years not a very long time. I would think that one should concider the elements in which the bike is ridden in, mud, sandy, snow, ect, ect and how often is the bike clean prior to riding again.

The point about the seal leaking seems logical, dirt would collect due to the area being oily causing more wear than normal.

I check my c/shaft sprocket for movement this weekend and mine seems "normal"....but what is normal for a bike that is 10 years old? I did not notice any alarming rate of movement out of the sprocket.

On that note, I am due for a complete new drive system, I will replace the "c"clip, and will go with a OEM Tallon and Dirt Tricks rear sprocket. I agree with you about the aluminum rear sprockets do wear too fast.

Good Luck.

[dave948]

4 years is not a long time for a bike that gets 20 hours a year, 20 hours a week, well you get were I'm going.

Running a chain too tight will cause a lot of wear on the cs as well. Once it starts it just keeps getting worse, and fast.

[REVERUP]

Ive never had any issues over the last 5 seasons. I've ran these sprockets on 3 different Gas Gas bikes all with hours ranging in the thousands. Very few of them hours easy or in good weather conditions.

Any sprocket would have accelerated shaft wear if it isn't secure or tight on the splines. Also as mentioned chain adjustment will play a huge role in drive train wear and tear including the counter shaft. Ive taken the almost new talon off my bikes cause I know it wont hold up nearly as long as the iron man in the crappy conditions we ride in up here. It is just as tight fitting as the talon when mounted on a new counter shaft.

These are the best damn sprockets made in my opinion and I think it is silly to post a thread as this is titled.

Roscoe

[cal_tony]

For those that asked or questioned if the Red locktite works, let me say that I use it on all my bikes. Sometimes taking them off requires prying them off gentely with 2 screwdrivers. Sometimes I've used a puller. But I no longer worry if a sprocket is eating up my secondary shaft. On my DRZ there are standing recommendations on the TT site re. the RED locktite fix. That fix is recommend because on the DRZ if the CS sprocket is not locktited chances are the vibration from it's loosness will cause the seal to fail and eventually it could actually cause xmissioin failure.

My second thought re. sprocket wear and hub problems from misaligned rear wheels goes to the issue of how do most riders line up their rear wheel?
My GG has 5 alignment marks on the swingarm. These are spaced 1/4" apart and are of no practical value for alignment purposes. It has been my practice for many years to use a vernier caliper on the stop blocks. I align my rear wheel stop screws to less than 1/100 th of an inch. To further indicate my concern on this issue I then tighten everything down start the bike up and let it idle in neutral I look down the slow moving chain and the rear sprocket and make sure that the chain is running down the middle of the rear sprocket. If it's doing that it is aligned and what ever sprockets or chain you are using, they will last longer.

Finally, when the rear wheel is properly aligned, there is less tendency for the front sprocket to want to wander on the spline. It's easy to say that this or that product caused a problem or wore out too soon but in many cases a slightly misaligned rear wheel could cause all these problems.

Tony