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Old 09-09-2006, 12:07 AM
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roostafish roostafish is offline
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Default Oil injection

Please, nobody shoot me, but how about this; Why do we not have oil injected off road two strokes? I just bought a 50cc oil injected quad for my son, and it doesn't smoke one bit at idle, and smoke is barely visible when he really gets on it. Wouldn't that be great?! I'd love it, if there was a little oil tank on my bike to fill and watch the level on, and just put straight gas in the tank, with the side benefit of less spooge dribbling out of the exhaust. Why not? What do you all think? The unit on my son's quad looks very simple, and it injects into the intake as it goes into the cylinder. I'll bet I could retro fit one, but would that make me a throwback to the '70s? I remember my dad's ancient yamaha 175 enduro with oil injection, and when I was a kid, I thought it was cheesy, my bike wsa cool 'cause I had to premix.


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Old 09-09-2006, 04:54 AM
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I wish too. Its probably going to make a comeback if 2T's have any hope of meeting emission restrictions. I read somewhere that one of the KTM 125 or 200's was coming with oil injection?? Can't find it now, so....
I remember the days when I got 600-1000kms out of litre of injection oil. I'll take the .02 of a HP loss and about 3lbs of weight for the convenience.
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:00 AM
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Oil injection has the advantage that when you run out of gas in the middle of nowhere you can blag some straight petrol from the local farmer.

Many people slag off oil injection which works just fine in zillions of road bikes everywhere. These old world closed minded people cannot accept the risk that the oil pump mechanism will continue to meter oil reliably into your precious engine.

When I discovered (just in time) that my oil level of my old DT200 was not going down -I became one of these people.

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Old 09-11-2006, 06:27 PM
flybars flybars is offline
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Default oil injection

My '96 Yamaha Mountain Lite snowmobile works the same way. And it is very reliable. I hope GG is looking hard at all options to get around the epa's silly 2t restrictive rules.
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:46 PM
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The oil isn’t the problem, the problem is when a 2 stroke isn’t in the tuned frequency of the pipe there is an awful lot of fuel getting short cct out of the engine & that unburnt fuel is what causes the tragic emissions.

I don’t think we are going to fix the problem here. All the promising designs haven’t come to anything so they (2-strokes) are fodder for the greenies as they are easy targets. But offroad bikes are such a small drop in the ocean I’m not about to start feeling guilty. The US consumes the most oil by far, but just wait as China kicks into gear & starts wanting everything the western world has had.
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Old 09-12-2006, 04:54 PM
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I agree with F5 on both counts.
Oil injection is an unecessary complication. What next a battery and starter motor? Pretty soon you'll want valves timed off the crankshaft.

The advantage of the 2T is simplicity, reliability, light weight and low maintenance costs. 4 strokes better serve the other end of the off road market.

I also agree with 2T being an easy target. Allows politicians to claim to be doing something while doing nothing because the main auto, aircraft and oil industry is too powerful. They wont get serious about green house gases until large numbers of americans are dying on account of them, and it'll have to be indisputable that it was greenhouse emissions too. Even then I bet interested parties will be saying it's unproven just like tobacco. So ... I'm enjoying my smoker in the meantime safe in the knowledge it's nothing compared to my next flight.

Cynical but sound reasoning?
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:48 PM
skid jackson skid jackson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (F5) View Post
The oil isn’t the problem, the problem is when a 2 stroke isn’t in the tuned frequency of the pipe there is an awful lot of fuel getting short cct out of the engine & that unburnt fuel is what causes the tragic emissions.

I don’t think we are going to fix the problem here. All the promising designs haven’t come to anything so they (2-strokes) are fodder for the greenies as they are easy targets. But offroad bikes are such a small drop in the ocean I’m not about to start feeling guilty. The US consumes the most oil by far, but just wait as China kicks into gear & starts wanting everything the western world has had.

Bombardier makes 2t evinrude boat motors that meet all epa guidelines. In fact I think the epa gave them an award for clean engine design, something like that. They also use a semi direct injection design on their snowmobile motors that makes them very clean burning. The technology is out there to make clean burning 2t's.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:55 AM
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Yeah, but boat motors and snowmobile engines are run at their optimum ALL the time. They're not constantly going everywhere in between low and high revs, meaning that they [bombardier] CAN make a clean-burning stroker due to not having to make a compromise with the oil mixing and exhausts, like F5 was saying.
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Old 09-13-2006, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iancp5 View Post
I agree with F5 on both counts.
Oil injection is an unecessary complication. What next a battery and starter motor? Pretty soon you'll want valves timed off the crankshaft.
I wouldn't call oil injection overly complicated, in most cases it runs off the crank via a little nylon gear and needs a short cable attached to the throttle. I would bet there is just as much risk of you mixing your fuel/oil wrong as there is in a failure of the system. I put about 50,000kms on oil injected bikes in the 70's & 80's, including road racing them, and rarely heard of them breaking down. There are still lots of 90's DT200's running around today with electric powervalves and oil injection.
It makes me think that KTM is getting the jumpstart on the EFI and being street legal idea now, with the new 300EXC coming with estart and a battery. EFI is just around the corner.
There are still lots of 1990's DT200's running around today with electric powervalves and oil injection. I know some with more than 30,000km's on them.

re: The oil isn’t the problem, the problem is when a 2 stroke isn’t in the tuned frequency of the pipe there is an awful lot of fuel getting short cct out of the engine & that unburnt fuel is what causes the tragic emissions.

True, the more radical the pipe is, the more this is a concern, but idling around with premix at 32-50:1, when it really only needs 100:1 or less is just adding to the stinky spooging situation. I think the old Yamaha system metered 100:1 at idle and 32 or 16:1 at full throttle. I think the Bombardier (Rotax) engine shut the oil completely off at idle some times.
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Old 09-13-2006, 05:24 PM
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Then there was my RZ350 that mysteriously was gaining gearbox oil. I had lambasted myself for overfilling it (tough run at work & not sleeping from stress I figured). Then it happened again, but I only found out after the bike had run the crank in the middle of a national park. I took it apart & “hey what the . . ?” Too much gear oil.

Turns out the shaft attached to the nylon gear moved the seal out of the way & was draining oil into the gearbox. Sadly this meant the oil was not all getting to where it should have.

This paranoia aside I will still run oil injection on my friend’s RZ500 (So it does have a purpose on a roadbike, perhaps a more clean environment so dirt doesn’t clog the injection system)
after he gives up the project & sells it to me cheap enough. Braced frame, upside down forks, modern brakes, Nikon pipes, huge weight loss.

Excellent. Now I just have to bide my time. . . .
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