motor power-total dealer confusion

[mattmax]

greetings
New to this site because i really like the ec 300, even though I've never even seen one. I have a '95 CR500 that i just had ported , but I can't ride when it's wet. I've been living in Ga, and something came up where i had to spend a lot of time in Houston, and i bought a KTM 300xcw in houston. I never fully got a chance to check out the KTM power because I never finished jetting it before i found out they sold me a used bike they passed off as new. A friend of the dealer or manager had seized the motor right after he bought it, they changed the title,they put a new piston in it and a light hone job and sold it to me for full price as new, not realizing I wasn't as sick as they thought and I know more about motors than their whole dealership. I contacted TV station guy, supposed to get money back tomorrow(This jackass on KTMtalk got reallymad because I let the TV news guy get my money in 20 min instead of letting him post the name on his "bad dealer board" which would have done nothing to get my money with this dealer.He goes by "ruderooster". I wanna call him "ruderoostersucker". Maybe he'll read this forum ) Anyway, the KTM was fast even without proper jetting. Real linear, but I never changed to the aggressive power valve spring. I like snap and whealies and the KTM has the power valve spring that you can change. I hated the handling, but some love it. Just feels mushy with lots of understeer and no feel for the terrain.
OK, sorry about the life story. Imagine buying a "new" used bike with a rigged cylinder for 6800 and the dealer denies everything and acts like he might not even fix it under warranty. Anyway, every GG dealer i talk to gives me a different story on the ec300. I'm sold on the suspension, so that's no problem. I want the duel ignition switch, and a light flywheel. several dealers said they never heard of the switch and they have 06's on their lot, one said he heard of the switch, but it only came on the dealer version, one said all 06's are dealer version's now and have the light flywheels and switches. Some told me the GG had more "snap" than the ktm at low rpm, one said the gg had the "2 stroke" hit more like a motocrosser than the ktm, one said the gg was so much more linear than the ktm, it was like an electric motor, and one confused me with details of changing models because of changing restrictions, but now all 06's were the same with the heavy flywheel, and one told me everything he thought i wanted to hear.
I'm sure it's fast, but I like a strong mid hit that lets you run through the gears in an open area without the front wheel ever touching the ground. Maybe that's a lot to ask on a 300, but if the it is even close, i could probably live with it. I'll never consider another KTM. I should consider myself lucky i was ripped off, because it gave me a chance to see how crappy the rear suspension setup is. If I don't get the GG, I want the ATK 700 intimidator. $10,000 is a lot and I think parts are high. I thought about the service honda cr500af for $10k, but I already have almost the same bike. I really want the GG, but I haven't even seen one yet. Can somebody clue me in?
Matt

[MattR]

Hi Matt,

I'm sorry to hear about the unfortunate luck with the KTM. That dealer should have been honest with you about the engine and sold it appropriately with an adjusted price. Glad you got the news and/or BBB involved.

You had a lot of GG questions in there and many were related so here I go...
Some of the confusion you may be getting from the dealer's comments may be related to the EC version vs. DE version. The EC is a special order for the USA which has the standard european setup (heavy flywheel, full wiring system with lights, blinkers, horn, turn signals, etc.). The DE is the standard USA bike which has been slightly modified to be more "USA" rider friendly. It is more comparable to the XC line from KTM (in fact there were called XC back in 2001, see my bike). The DE/XC bike has a lighter flywheel, abbreviated wiring loom with headlight, tail light, and brake light only, and a different exhaust system (FMF Gnarly pipe with FMF Turbine Core 2 silencer).

Your preferred power characteristics some more inline with the DE/XC versions. Also, the 250 will give you more "hit" than the 300. People like the 300's since you can lug them around more in a gear higher. I love my 250 with a 10oz flywheel weight. It is the best of both worlds.

The dual map is standard in 2006 on EC bikes. I believe the DE bikes also had the handlebar switch. If not, it's no problem since the CDI will be the same. The CDI will have two additional wires on it and can be hooked up to a handlebar switch, toggle switch, etc. Some 2005 bikes had the newer CDI's and people started doing this mod.

The suspension on 2006 bikes is a Marzocchi fork and Ohlins rear shock. The older bikes like mine had a WP fork with Ohlins rear shock. There is a special order option for the Ohlins fork but it is pricey. Some members here have it and can give you an evaluation.

[mattmax]

I have every reason to think what you say is true, and it all makes sense,but some of what i heard from the most knowledgeable sounding guy is slightly different.First I heard there was a version that had a cat converter and didn't have a critical serial number to keep you from putting on the road. That sounds like it could be a couple of years old and out of date. This guy said, dealer version or not,they can no longer be brought in with headlightslights on them, but wasn't sure about the tailights, but said the brakelight switch was there and it had headlight wires. In other words, what one dealer called the dealer version that also came with ohlins forks, and you called the ec, is no more. Everything you say seems to jive now. The guys with 06's and no switches just don't know they can be added. then there are dealers with the same supposd bike that say all there's have switches. One guy said the dc is now the ec and they are all dealer versions, except for the ohlins fork option and one guy confused me by saying they come with all these different flywheel weight, starting at 14 oz. The 07's do come with Ohlins,it's on there site. Ok, I think I've got that straightened out. The KTM low end was nothing like four stroke. It was total snap, but not enough to yank the front wheel and my 500 will do that, even at low rpm. Of coarse i didn'thave it jetted right. It was very fast, but not enough to pul the front wheel up, and I have more sense than to try to help it by pulling the bars up. That's how you land on your back. I believe the KTM with the red power valve spring will act like a motocrosser at high RPM, but I think the rear suspension screws up the whole bike. And it's supposed to have more low end than the ecand less top end, but that's magazine talk. I know GG doesn't have the rider base yet that ktm has, so there aren't the mechanics yet. I just wish GG had the adjustable power valve. Since the hit is all about how fast the valve opens and what rpm, there has to be a way to modify it. I just want the switch and low end without giving up the reason for owning a two stroke. Maybe I could figure it out. A three position switch. One for slick conditions, one for riding like a girl, and one for having fun.
Matt

[Dave]

Welcome Matt.
Just remember when you go in to a showroom you're talking to a salesman...
Unfortunately, Gas Gas hasn't produced a US specific spec. sheet for the DE version. Maybe we should pose that question to Mr. Saunders.
There is an on-the-fly adjustable power valve cover, but I don't know if it's being imported.

[mattmax]

I found out that the dealer that that said he had 06's for 6200, but no switch on the bar, really has 05's, and even an 04 or two. Sounds like a lot for an 05. The 05's have lights and I don't think they know about the new reg on headlights, so maybe I can get a deal with a headlight. Is the 05 basically the same as the 06 otherwise, and how much should I expect to pay? Now that they are no longer "ignorant", one guy at this dealer told me that the switch was only for motocross races so there would be no wheel spin at start, but then they have to turn it off, or it is illegal. Sounds possible for the moto version, but I know he was way off on the enduro.

This got me to thinking about the motocross version of the 250. It has the dual ignition, so I wonder if I could ride it like a wild woods bike(which I do with my CR-my cousin never fails to remind me that it's not made for the woods, but he's the one who always falls and gets pelted with my rocks) and kick in the "mild" mode when things got really tight. The Ktm 300xc is called sx(motocross) in one mode, and enduro(exc) in the other. I was told they use the same mapping module.

Are the mapping modules, programmed by the factory, or would the ktm and GG module have the same affect on each bike? I heard that the moto GG 250 was almost unobtainable, even more so than the ktm 250sx(like I'd by one with that bogus swingarm setup). Any comments or help?

[mattmax]

Dave
That power valve cover sounds interesting. Could you explain how and what it would do? I understand the principle of the PV and from what I understand about the KTM adjustable PV, the 2 cycle hit has to do with how fast and what RPM range the valve opens. I was told by a dealer that the GG was so linear because the PV opens slowly throughout the entire RPM range. Any Info is appreciated.
Matt

[FFRDave]

Now I have $.02 for ya.

That duel map ignition switch did not come on the 2005 EC, but the CDI unit did have the extra pair of wires. I added the switch, and I have dabbled with it a little, but the difference is not very noticable.

I think that making changes to the flywheel weight will make the most dramatic change from a MX vs Woods bike.

I have the LTR power-valve cover, and the LTR Jet kit. I love my GG the way it is, but I am also having the head squish adjusted by RB Designs.

My thoughts about the Gas gas bikes amount to the following:

I love my Gas gas !!!

I usualy ride the desert areas in south-eastern Washington. I have ridden MX bikes for a long time. I have had a great time on my Hondas (1999 CR 250, and 2001 CR 500). I also just love the wheelies you can get on a 1982 YZ 490. If I found a YZ 490 if that year, I would buy it just for the wheelies I could do.
I rode my Cousins GG ec 250 and it was like no other bike I have ever ridden. (like that one special ladie you've waited for all your life. You only know her when you see her - AND THEN YOUR DONE) The very next weekend, I was hauling mine home in the back of my truck.

The power delivery I get on my 2005 GG EC 250 is so linear, that I can do whatever I want. If its wheelies GG is up for it. If Im going up big hills GG is there. If im crossing streams (during break in ) GG is into it. Im on the sand dunes at WOT, or crawling through roots and boulders on some mountainside.

I love my Gas gas !!

nuf sed