Need your recommendations for my next bike

[mattmax]

Well, it's hard for me to recommend the KTM without knowing the Husky and my recent misfortune with the KTM 300xcw. I was originally going to buy a 525sx before the deal fell through. I'm actually starting to think about the 07 KTM instead of the GG, even though I know GG has superior suspension components. With the KTM, you have the lack of shock linkage that is a very simple setup and eliminates linkage maintenance. I don't think anyone has ever decided if the lack of linkage helps or hurts handling.

I don't know either the Husky or four stroke KTM's, but I know how easy it is to work on an 300xc. The KTM xc is so easy to work on that I could do a top end job in about 30 minutes using the tiny tool kit and disassemble the rest of the bike as well(maybe not split the cases).

From what I have heard, the valve tappets on the KTM are easy to get to,adjust, and the valves have a long life. The Husky with the shim valve I have no idea the amount of work it would take to adjust, but my cousin has a Yamaha WR250 that has a shim valve motor, and right after he got it, we sat around, laughing our asses off reading the service manual and what it would take to adjust the valves. I may remember wrong, but I think the motor had to be removed, and we basically decided the bike would be sold, burned, or pushed off a cliff before that happened.

Don't listen to me. I just sold myself on what bike I'm going to buy. I think I want the KTM525sx. That's what I really wanted and settled for the 300xcw, and got ripped of. I have a fast two stroke with gobs of low end torque and and tons of top end and a brutal power band(CR500). I want a try a beastly four stroke.

Matt

[Hawkeye]

Matt,

I'm a huge GG fan. That being said, I have a 2001 KTM 400EXC that I use very similarly to what you are trying to do. Hate to say it but my KTM has been stone reliable, valves are easy to adjust, I even have the stock battery which is pushing 5 years! I commute 4 miles to work on gravel roads, and have raced hare scrambles and trailrode this bike in the UP. KTM has to get credit, they have their EXC's well sorted out. My bike is stock except for WER revalved suspension from it's previous owner. I have two sets of dirt wheels, and use up my old race bike knobbies on the "commuting" rims. I paid $700 for a used set of KTM rims from their hard parts catalog. I really like getting free commuting tires off my GG300 and my buddies' bikes. I don't baby the KTM, it gets an oil change every 10-12 hours and the valves looked at once every couple of years. It went from Sept. 2003 to May of 2006 and the valves were within .002 tolerance. Granted I don't put a ton of hours on it with the short commute, but that is pretty great. Oil filters are changed every other oil change, and I like the paper ones.

I'd look for a deal on a leftover 525 if I were you and shop for some used wheels to use for commuting. Good luck, and realize how lucky you are to have all that fabulous trail at your disposal.

[MattR]

Thanks for all of the responses. While there has been a range of different views, it seems like the clear winners are KTM and Husky (as far as favorites go). Husky has the "exotic" appeal to me, but I will probably go with the well- proven KTM 525EXC. Their design has been around for several years and there is plenty of history/tech tips available online.

I love my GG 2-stroke, but I just don't think GG has a top performnig 4-stroke yet. Starting in 2005, it appears that many of the earlier issues have been worked out. If you look at the WEC and ISDE, the EC250/300 has been dominate compared to their FSE450. This alone indicates to me the lack of confidence the team has in the FSE450 design. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see GG have a great 4-stroke bike to compete against the top runners... I just don't see it happening for a couple years.

Hawkeye,
I like your idea of reusing knobbies on the road. I was planning to get a second set of stock wheels to mount "smoother" dual-sport tires. Recycled knobbies is a good way to go.

[Metalefty]

Originally Posted by MattR

Thanks for all of the responses. While there has been a range of different views, it seems like the clear winners are KTM and Husky (as far as favorites go). Husky has the "exotic" appeal to me, but I will probably go with the well- proven KTM 525EXC. Their design has been around for several years and there is plenty of history/tech tips available online.

I love my GG 2-stroke, but I just don't think GG has a top performnig 4-stroke yet. Starting in 2005, it appears that many of the earlier issues have been worked out. If you look at the WEC and ISDE, the EC250/300 has been dominate compared to their FSE450. This alone indicates to me the lack of confidence the team has in the FSE450 design. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see GG have a great 4-stroke bike to compete against the top runners... I just don't see it happening for a couple years.

Hawkeye,
I like your idea of reusing knobbies on the road. I was planning to get a second set of stock wheels to mount "smoother" dual-sport tires. Recycled knobbies is a good way to go.

That seems like an odd way to choose a bike that your not that serious about. You originaly stated that you were looking for a dual sport then you said you were going to use your GG250 for most of your singletrack work then you choose a bike on popularity and pro race particapation. Even if the GG450 wasn't good enough to race at pro level you would never be able to bring out the flaws in the bike anyways, so why would you want a "top performer" especially for just dual sporting? If more people own a certain bike then of course more people are going to say they like it, that doesn't mean it's better. If GG doesn't have a top rider on there 450 I don't think that means they don't have confidence in there product. I guess it seems odd to me to purchase a $7-8K bike on what OTHER riders think especially since you don't know what kind of riders they are or if there brand loyal biased. That's a lot of money to have someone sway a decision for you. What are the dealers like in your area? Since most riders can't bring out all of the performance in these bikes maybe choosing a dealer first would help best. How many of the bikes your interested in are you able to ride or have ridden?
I didn't mean for it to sound like a rant, I was just surprised by your last post.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Metalefty

That seems like an odd way to choose a bike that your not that serious about. You originaly stated that you were looking for a dual sport then you said you were going to use your GG250 for most of your singletrack work then you choose a bike on popularity and pro race particapation.

Yes, I'm keeping my GG XC250 for most singletrack. I don't call choosing my next bike a "popularity contest". I asked for recommendations from folks here that I know have a long history of riding/racing. Many folks have been fortunate effort to have ridden or owned some of the bikes that I listed. Getting their first hand feedback is valuable.

Originally Posted by Metalefty

Even if the GG450 wasn't good enough to race at pro level you would never be able to bring out the flaws in the bike anyways, so why would you want a "top performer" especially for just dual sporting? If more people own a certain bike then of course more people are going to say they like it, that doesn't mean it's better. If GG doesn't have a top rider on there 450 I don't think that means they don't have confidence in there product.

If I wanted a "plain/lazy" dualsport, then I would just buy a Honda XR650L. However, I want a "top performer" because my adventure rides up in North Michigan will need it. I'm not talking about just some dirt road riding... this bike will need to handle singletrack on the same level as my GG XC250, but also needs to get me from trail system A to trail system B.

By GG not having riders on their 450's just sends out a red flag to me. Maybe they are great bikes now, but their presence is not shown in racing where reliability and performance are key. Just my $0.02.

Originally Posted by Metalefty

I guess it seems odd to me to purchase a $7-8K bike on what OTHER riders think especially since you don't know what kind of riders they are or if there brand loyal biased. That's a lot of money to have someone sway a decision for you.

$7k is a lot of money and that is why I'm asking for feedback. All of the bikes listed in my first post are great bikes. I would be happy with any of them. I know most riders here from the Smackover forum and I respect their opinions. I want to know the gritty details that the bike magazines don't publish.

Originally Posted by Metalefty

What are the dealers like in your area? Since most riders can't bring out all of the performance in these bikes maybe choosing a dealer first would help best. How many of the bikes your interested in are you able to ride or have ridden?

The local dealers suck in my area. I bought my GG out-of-state and had it shipped to me. I probably will do this again just to get a good shop. My riding buddies have only KTM's so I can try their bikes. No one around me owns Husky, Husaberg, or GG four-strokes... hence my reasoning for making this thread.

[Hawkeye]

"I guess it seems odd to me to purchase a $7-8K bike on what OTHER riders think especially since you don't know what kind of riders they are or if there brand loyal biased."

I'll admit I feel a little put off by the sentiment behind Metalefty's comment, and I'll call it as I see it - brand loyalty bias. If you read my post again, I can't see where my experiences aren't dead on to what MattR is asking comment on. I have a GG300 and love it - it wins races for me. I have a KTM400 - I race it and commute on it. I have ridden 4 times in the Six Days of Michigan and in the Marquette enduro loops, so I know what terrain MattR is talking about. I have ridden a 2003 GG FSE, it was big feeling, heavy and cushy plush. It would probably work really well for a dual-sport, but if you want to compare it to the reliability record of the KTM EXC's, there would be no contest. My KTM is like a Honda, and I'll be the first to admit it. I'm not a huge KTM fan, I'm just telling people like it is. In 4 years of owning my KTM I have had to replace one C/S seal, a kickstand bolt and one water pump seal. Oh yes, I had to clean the pilot jet after it sat for one too many winter days. That is amazing, considering the waterpump seal was my fault for forgetting that my friend put straight water in the engine after popping a radiator hose off at an enduro. He told me about it, and I forgot to get it flushed and replaced with a 50/50 mix. The minerals in the water tore the seal. My fault.

Back to the brand loyalty issue. Lets face it, GG 4 strokes have struggled in the marketplace. The first generation GG FSE's had starter, injection mapping problems, so much so that GG spent big $ redesigning the motor completely just three years later. I wanted to buy a GG FSE, but I couldn't get comfortable about the overall reliability and the lack of a strong knowledge base on performance tuning the EFI system.

All that being said, would I suggest a GG FSE for MattR. Sure, I would just recommend he pick up a new model laying around on a dealer's showroom for a really good price and expect to spend more time tinkering with it in the garage to get it set up and keep it running. IMO, the KTM is a safer choice - you can pick them up fairly cheap, everybody knows how to work on them, and mine has been stone axe reliable (and it pains me to say it). The one plus to a GG FSE would be that Matt could scavenge many chassis parts off his two bikes in an emergency if he needed to make a race, etc.

I try not to post unless I have specific knowledge about the topic at hand. If I don't know, I keep quiet. Too much of the Internet is filled with "experts" spouting off their opinions when they frankly don't know what they are talking about, and are parrotting what they read in a magazine or another site.

[Metalefty]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

"I guess it seems odd to me to purchase a $7-8K bike on what OTHER riders think especially since you don't know what kind of riders they are or if there brand loyal biased."

I'll admit I feel a little put off by the sentiment behind Metalefty's comment, and I'll call it as I see it - brand loyalty bias. If you read my post again, I can't see where my experiences aren't dead on to what MattR is asking comment on. I have a GG300 and love it - it wins races for me. I have a KTM400 - I race it and commute on it. I have ridden 4 times in the Six Days of Michigan and in the Marquette enduro loops, so I know what terrain MattR is talking about. I have ridden a 2003 GG FSE, it was big feeling, heavy and cushy plush. It would probably work really well for a dual-sport, but if you want to compare it to the reliability record of the KTM EXC's, there would be no contest. My KTM is like a Honda, and I'll be the first to admit it. I'm not a huge KTM fan, I'm just telling people like it is. In 4 years of owning my KTM I have had to replace one C/S seal, a kickstand bolt and one water pump seal. Oh yes, I had to clean the pilot jet after it sat for one too many winter days. That is amazing, considering the waterpump seal was my fault for forgetting that my friend put straight water in the engine after popping a radiator hose off at an enduro. He told me about it, and I forgot to get it flushed and replaced with a 50/50 mix. The minerals in the water tore the seal. My fault.

Back to the brand loyalty issue. Lets face it, GG 4 strokes have struggled in the marketplace. The first generation GG FSE's had starter, injection mapping problems, so much so that GG spent big $ redesigning the motor completely just three years later. I wanted to buy a GG FSE, but I couldn't get comfortable about the overall reliability and the lack of a strong knowledge base on performance tuning the EFI system.

All that being said, would I suggest a GG FSE for MattR. Sure, I would just recommend he pick up a new model laying around on a dealer's showroom for a really good price and expect to spend more time tinkering with it in the garage to get it set up and keep it running. IMO, the KTM is a safer choice - you can pick them up fairly cheap, everybody knows how to work on them, and mine has been stone axe reliable (and it pains me to say it). The one plus to a GG FSE would be that Matt could scavenge many chassis parts off his two bikes in an emergency if he needed to make a race, etc.

I try not to post unless I have specific knowledge about the topic at hand. If I don't know, I keep quiet. Too much of the Internet is filled with "experts" spouting off their opinions when they frankly don't know what they are talking about, and are parrotting what they read in a magazine or another site.

Well, first off I want to say that I certainly don't want to make any enemies on here and secondly I'm just going to clear this up.
Hawkeye, I never pointed the brand loyal biased comment at anybody, it was a general statement with an "if" in front of it, I'm not sure why you thought it had to do with you. You also mention an '03 GG400/450 which I have also ridden and agree that it's big,heavy and cushy. That old '03 feels nothing like my '05 and a lot of the issues with those older bikes is sorted out now. As for reliability I wouldn't buy an older GG400/450 either but I've put in a over a solid year on this '05 GG450 and that freak stator is the only thing thats happened and I've talked to several other riders with '05's and don't hear any real complaints from them either. Not as many riders own GG450's as KTM's or Husky or for that matter most any bike, so your going to get more riders saying there bikes are reliable or perform good, I'm not saying the GG is as reliable but I would be willing to bet it's close. As for struggling in the marketplace, I owned two KTM's back in the 80's when they were struggling in the marketplace and they were great bikes, I knew a couple of A moto riders who loved them, didn't mean there was anything wrong with them, just that they didn't catch on yet. If you've never owned an '05 or newer GG450 how would you know he would have to tinker with it so much, I own one and have had to hardly tinker at all. You recommended A GG450 to Mattr but you said the one plus would be to scavenge parts off of his two bikes in an emergency. You said that you don't post unless you have specific knownledge about a topic at hand and that if you don't know you keep quiet. You didn't know that I wasn't talking about you and you didn't keep quiet, you didn't even own a GG450 and you didn't keep quiet ,and you sound like an "expert that is spouting off and frankly doesn't know what there talking about". I think all of the 450's are great bikes and realize that most riders can't bring out the full potential of these machines. The point I'm trying to get across is that the newer GG450 is basically as good as anything else and in some areas even better but not many riders know that. I guess I don't like to see riders dismiss the newer GG450's so quickly without any REAL knownledge so I try to help a little with my REAL experience. Mattr said at the end of the first page that his plans were for a Husky or KTM with only one positive GG comment to go by, then at the end Mattr said "the clear winners are KTM and Husky as far as favourites go" and when you read back through the posts you see more riders that own them with positive opinions, then there were fewer riders that owned a GG450 that had positive opinions exept for maybe inabil who liked his GG but was dissapointed about the kickstarting that he was wrong about, hence the popularity contest. Mattr also said he would be happy with any of the bikes which makes it odd to me as to why he's choosing one of the two bikes that got the most feedback. The GG didn't get as many but just as good as feedback as anything else which adds to why it's odd to me that there are clear winners to Mattr's decision. Lastly, I tried to take any harshness out of what I said to Mattr by saying "I didn't mean for this to sound like a rant" and "I was just suprised by your last post". to keep things friendly, even with a smiley face.

[MattR]

OK everyone, let's take a deep breath in and exhale... deep breath in and exhale... now that we are all calm, this thread was not created to get everyone fired up.

Prior to this thread, I have been doing lots of researching on multiple forums. Too many in fact! Being an engineer is part of my problem... "paralysis by analysis" or the tendency to over-analyze something. I've heard a broad range of opinions on all of my four bike choices based on postings from KTMTalk, ThumperTalk, Dirtrider.net, Supermoto Junkie, and Smackover. Since many people on those forums can have "biased" opinions, I've taken much of those discussions with a grain of salt.

This is the reason why I posted here asking for everyone's opinions. I consider everyone on this board as my friend. Over the past couple years, I have grown to trust the members on the Smackover forum. Now, most of the members are participating on this forum. I knew our dedicated GG riders would give their honest opinions about all of the euro bikes regardless of brand.

When I made the comment about the KTM and Husky appearing as the clear winners, it was due to several posts confirming what I had already thought regarding my choices. In my first post, I listed my choices in rank form with KTM and Husky on top.

By the way, I do believe that GasGas had made good design changes on the FSE450. Since 2005, the bikes are much better by what I have read on this forum and others. This is why I listed it as a choice... just lower on my list since I still don't like the fact that the GG Team doesn't race it compared to the EC250/300's (it gives me the impression of unreliability).

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

[Metalefty]

Originally Posted by MattR

OK everyone, let's take a deep breath in and exhale... deep breath in and exhale... now that we are all calm, this thread was not created to get everyone fired up.

Prior to this thread, I have been doing lots of researching on multiple forums. Too many in fact! Being an engineer is part of my problem... "paralysis by analysis" or the tendency to over-analyze something. I've heard a broad range of opinions on all of my four bike choices based on postings from KTMTalk, ThumperTalk, Dirtrider.net, Supermoto Junkie, and Smackover. Since many people on those forums can have "biased" opinions, I've taken much of those discussions with a grain of salt.

This is the reason why I posted here asking for everyone's opinions. I consider everyone on this board as my friend. Over the past couple years, I have grown to trust the members on the Smackover forum. Now, most of the members are participating on this forum. I knew our dedicated GG riders would give their honest opinions about all of the euro bikes regardless of brand.

When I made the comment about the KTM and Husky appearing as the clear winners, it was due to several posts confirming what I had already thought regarding my choices. In my first post, I listed my choices in rank form with KTM and Husky on top.

By the way, I do believe that GasGas had made good design changes on the FSE450. Since 2005, the bikes are much better by what I have read on this forum and others. This is why I listed it as a choice... just lower on my list since I still don't like the fact that the GG Team doesn't race it compared to the EC250/300's (it gives me the impression of unreliability).

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

LOL...that's cool Mattr, I really don't care what bike you end up with, your gonna like it. Those pro race bikes are torn down and freshened up many more times than us regular riders and racers do in a season so I'm not sure how there reliability compares to even hard and fast trail riding and regular maintenance on our bikes with no real reliability problems. Since I own one and personaly know someone that has two and talked with several other riders who own them with no major problems then my impression is that they are very reliable.
Good luck with your decision...

[Hawkeye]

I love stirring things up a little bit, I think it makes for more interesting reading. I was never not calm, and I wasn't aiming my last comments about Internet experts to Metalefty or anyone person in this thread. He owns an FSE, I don't. I probably should have made that point more clear that it is was a generic statement.

I think the dialogue between Metalefty and I has helped everyone see where we were coming from. I represented the KTM side based on what I've seen, and Metalefty the GG. For dualsporting either a new model GG or a KTM or a Husky would work, were not talking WEC or National Enduro championship level racing here. I said the KTM would be a safer choice, not that it would be a better performing bike than the new FSE. By safer, I meant cheaper to purchase (leftover KTM's are available new for well under $6K, there is a ton of tips on KTM talk to do your own maintainance and tuning, and lots of aftermarket wheel sets for sale). I never claimed to be an expert on the new GG FSE, I'm not. But my experiences with a KTM dual sport application in Michigan are directly applicable to Matt's questions.

Maybe I should lay out a little more background and why defending GG when they really don't deserve it gets me going about the dark side of brand loyalty. I'm not aiming that statement at any one individual- OK? I'm trying to improve the brand by speaking about what's wrong and should be changed. I own two GG, but that's the tip of the iceberg, I am a GG nut! I got my local dealer to start carrying them. I've influenced 9 friends of mine to buy them. I've been wanting them to take off as a brand and become more successful since 2001. I've made relationships with experienced respected dealers, aside from my local dealer. I've been to the dealer show before, met Mr. Cassas and Juan Romero (CEO of the former importer). It has been frustrating to see GG shoot themselves in the foot many times along the way. They really needed a US importer that rides and races dirt bikes, not run by some CEO in a suit who doesn't ride. GG and the importer need to be on this site gathering info and then APPLY it to the production line. They need to help dealers get bikes early and help them sell them for the most value, not blow out leftover model bikes year after year. What are they doing selling rebadged Chinese quads? Can they compete in that market and make money? They need to be racing the 4 stroke and getting information out to dealers on how to tune it and set it up. In fact, they could do set up and hop-up bulletins (like Yamaha's wrench reports), and get them out to all the 2T and 4T GG owners. Most importantly they need to find their niche in the market and focus on it. Wrap their marketing around that and build a bigger brand. Look at KTM and their PDS, Husky and their street legal move, good examples. GG seems to have great strength with their tractable two strokes that are pretty much ready to race out of the box, that and their growing aftermarket support. Those would be good points to focus on.

The new importer is a great start. The in-house GGMA experiment ended as a dismal failure - no one could even find 2006's in the US to purchase! Now will the new management out in Spain follow the KTM example of listening to input from the US? Time will tell. IMO, GG has done a poor job of listening in the past 5 years for a small manufacturer. Probably a topic for another post!