Negative Campaigning: Gas Gas vs KTM

[AZRickD]

There was a bit of a GG/KTM issue over at KTMTalk this past week, so I hope this doesn't come off poorly. Despite the topic and the potential direction, let's try to keep this upbeat (even if I can't quite).

Given this is a presidential election season here in the US of A, I find it amusing that political ads that cite an opponent's record ("McCain-Lieberman bill, McCain-Feingold") is forever referred to by journalists as "going negative," or a "negative ad" rather than something more neutral such as "comparison ads."

And with that, it brings me to the forever KTM vs Gas Gas "comparison threads" that appear here and KTMTalk every other week. There was a complaint over there that GasGas fans often trash KTM (the charge was strongly denied by GG owners).

Perhaps the KTMers were misconstruing the tone of the GG-riders, but I didn't see any appreciable negativity, just a presentation of facts both pro & con KTM and pro & con Gas Gas (on both sides).

Truth be told (pun intended), the best information I have found has been in actually riding the bikes. It allowed me to decide using a more rational, performance-based (even seat-of-the-pants) method.

That being said, whenever I see my Gas-Gassery wavering (due to lack of a dealer or uncertainty of finding a good dealer, or wondering if the '08 KaTooms are as good as some say), all I have to do is spend a little time on the "Which KTM For Me?" forum and my "faith" in GG is restored.

Just an impression, but the stories of orange difficulty appear to be never ending. Problems choosing and being satisfied with XC vs XC-W gearing. Same problems with XC vs XC-W suspension. And now twin-cartridge and open-cartridge forks. KTM "offers so many choices" but so few solutions.

The story types are myriad, but one struck me today as being rather peculiar. I won't go into details, (and it's not just suspension-related) but essentially I wonder how _so many_ KTMers can pay good $$ to have their suspension tuned, returning once, twice, thrice and still not get the bike right while many Gassers are content to do the clickers (like Jap bikes) and others get the re-valve right the first time.

It would drive me nuts.

[jyellard]

I started the thread you are referring to. I was wanting someone to convince me to not buy a GasGas for my next bike. Some of the KTM faithful really take offense to references of orange kool-aid.

I've never ridden a KTM or a GasGas. I could take a test ride on a KTM from one of my many fellow club members who ride KTMs, but GasGas bikes are more rare. Why take a ride on a KTM 2-stroke if I have no other modern off-road oriented 2-stroke to compare it to. The only other resource I have is the internet. From what I've read, I'm going GasGas. I'll keep you posted.

[Skidad]

I have never ridden a Gas Gas I must say first. As a very potential GG buyer and current KTM owner I watched this thread over at KTM Talk with great interest and drag out for 7 full pages. I chose to stay out of it. In the end (it may not be over yet) I was glad to see cooler heads seem to prevail and most hoping for the GG brand to well. No one is really concerned about GG threatening KTM and the big orange machine any time soon. I was kind of hoping to see the thread go away finally.

I have absoultely nothing against you AZRickD but why come back over here to the GG forum and start in about the KTM Talk thread is just continuing to stir the pot IMO. What do you expect to get out of it? More GG riders to venture over to KTM Talk to defend the brand? Let it go please.

Both brands are excellent off road motorcycles and I'm sure the bikes on both sides of the fence are better than the majority of our abilities. I can't wait to get a good ride on a GG because my feelings right now are I REALLY want one of these bikes...but I need to try one out and pull some money together. Besides the GG bikes being excellent, for me personally I would be quite happy to be on something different (I used to ride Pentons before they were KTM's here and they were different). I root for all the little guys to do well like GG, Beta, Sherco, TM, etc. Heck, I kind of feel like I ride something different already with my old 97 250 KTM with it's linkage/Ohlins rear and Marzocchi conentional fork front suspension and funny pumpkin orange color. Maybe deep down I want the linkage so I don't have to mess with the current PDS on the new KTM's. (that and 6 speeds) Oh here I go LOL

And as far as the KTM suspension. Anyone who has followed these bikes for years knows that as soon as they went to the PDS in 98 (this is why I love my 97 by the way) the bikes became very finickey to set up and probably more easy to screw up than a linkage bike. It took them 10 years before they finally changed to the new frame and shock angle even though it was well known the angles were wrong. I haven't ridden an 08 for any length of time but it's a BIG improvement finally from the reviews I've read. I would have also liked to see KTM have the option of using something other than WP suspension like most manufacturers but they were joined at the hip. KTM just sold WP to it's parent holding company so many in KTM land are already dreaming of seeing something besides the WP stuff on the bikes although publicly they say it will continue to use WP. And then there is always the rumor of KTM returning to linkage. Anyway bottom line is the PDS for whatever reason is more finicky to tune and the more "off" it is the more narrow it's range of terrain handling ability becomes as well as messing up the front end to boot. If any KTM guy denies this he's in denial. To many years of proof to back it up.

Pease bro


Skidad in MA

[KDXfile]

I'm a former GasGas rider and current KTM rider and lurking here now considering going back to a '07 EC250. I think there's some Kool-Aid swilling on both sides after following some threads on both websites. It gets to be a little funny how serious people take this brand loyalty. I never really had a problem with the suspension on the KTM's but I know how to revalve the forks and my '07 250xcfw suspension works great. It has other issues that brings me here.
I had 3 GG's starting with a '99 ec200 and got tired of dealing with the linkage maintenance so decided to go with KTM's for awhile. Plus, the local dealer closed shop.
I don't like the way the new KTM's run and are too hard to jet right.
I have always thought the GG motor was awesome so hopefully I can sell my KTM and get on a ec250 soon. I still think both brands are good and riders should just go with what they like and not worry about what everyone else is riding.

There was a time here in the South between '98-'04 or so, a third of the bikes at an enduro or harescramble would be a GasGas. They were pretty common around here back then. Then GGNA went down a lot of dealers went out of business and parts were not easy to get locally anymore. The market got flooded with bikes nobody could give away. This is probably were a lot of the negative stories are coming from and are still lingering on today. Of course everything is a lot better now with the internet market for parts and support so you don't really need a local dealer so much. But, there are a lot of former GG riders and probably current KTM riders with a bad taste in their mouths from this.

Hopefully all these negative threads will go away and we can just ride.

[jyellard]

I'm just learning about GasGas bikes, history of the company, ect. I realize it would be a risk, but it sounds like now would be a prime time to open a GasGas dealership considering the potential to improve the distributer issues in the US.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who dreams of quiting their day job for such a venture. If GasGas were to take off the way KTM has in the past 10-15 years, it may pay off.

[AZRickD]

Originally Posted by Skidad

I have absoultely nothing against you AZRickD but why come back over here to the GG forum and start in about the KTM Talk thread is just continuing to stir the pot IMO.

I know, I know. It was risky. That's why the first five paragraphs of my initial post were conciliatory in nature.

What do you expect to get out of it? More GG riders to venture over to KTM Talk to defend the brand? Let it go please.

No, and that's why I didn't link to that thread here. If I wanted a pile-on I would have linked it (on this an other forums). I did feel a duty to defend Truth, Justice and the Spanish way as the KTMers were spreading misinformation and old news circa 2002 (as if KTM didn't have problems in 2002,3, 4, 5), but I feel that mission is accomplished and that thread is dead.

So, what do I hope to get out of this thread? Some insight. Insight into the whys and wherefores of brand loyalty. Why a large, and growing number of riders are going to a manufacturer that can only make baby-steps in improvements due to sticking with what is arguably a flawed system (suspension, tranny ratios, etc). Kind of like the abused-wife syndrome.

Here in the Arizona trail community, KTM is strongly represented and those who have KTM pressure, shame, and cajole other riders to go KTM (and many do). It's like Scientology, without the poorly-written science fiction.

[Metalefty]

What I've noticed over the years is that most KTM riders haven't even ridden/owned a GasGas let alone see one in person. A lot of KTM riders swear there on the best bike and a lot of those KTM owners are newer younger riders without much experience on anything else. How do they know there on the best bike if they haven't ridden much of anything else? Most GasGas owners have ridden/owned other popular brands and have a better idea as to what works for them. IMO, this is where the argument comes from. To many KTM owners bragging that there bikes are the best without much experience on other brands. I also see it in person all the time.
I've noticed that sometimes on the bike sites when a GG owner recommends a GG to someone asking about which bike to buy, a KTM owner will chime in and say that KTM's are the best and numerous other KTM owners will come in behind the first one with kind of a mob mentality and the original poster will start replying back with comments like, "gee, I think I'll go with KTM, everybody seems to like them, they must be better". Don't get me wrong, KTM's are great bikes but so are some other brands.

[Skidad]

Originally Posted by Metalefty

What I've noticed over the years is that most KTM riders haven't even ridden/owned a GasGas let alone see one in person. A lot of KTM riders swear there on the best bike and a lot of those KTM owners are newer younger riders without much experience on anything else. How do they know there on the best bike if they haven't ridden much of anything else? Most GasGas owners have ridden/owned other popular brands and have a better idea as to what works for them. IMO, this is where the argument comes from. To many KTM owners bragging that there bikes are the best without much experience on other brands. I also see it in person all the time.
I've noticed that sometimes on the bike sites when a GG owner recommends a GG to someone asking about which bike to buy, a KTM owner will chime in and say that KTM's are the best and numerous other KTM owners will come in behind the first one with kind of a mob mentality and the original poster will start replying back with comments like, "gee, I think I'll go with KTM, everybody seems to like them, they must be better". Don't get me wrong, KTM's are great bikes but so are some other brands.

I think you are correct on almost all accounts here. I've never even ridden a GG bike I'll admit but my mind is wide open. For some funny reason I find myself defending the brand. David/Goliath I guess.


Skidad in MA

[Skidad]

Why a large, and growing number of riders are going to a manufacturer that can only make baby-steps in improvements due to sticking with what is arguably a flawed system (suspension, tranny ratios, etc).

Well I really don't think it's a flawed system per say. The suspension CAN be made to work very well but it's more tricky and I think for the average rider who is trying to understand what his suspension is doing and how to fix it this can be tuff to pull off. Obviously for many tuners as well. Despite this fact the KTM's are still excellent bikes that work well enough and far surpass the ability of the majority of riders. You can't argue with the enormouse success they have had worldwide. You don't get that success building inferior bikes. Only in the very upper levels of US MX have they failed to have really succeded. I believe they have 1 outdoor national 125cc championship to date. If they would spend the money for a really top flight rider perhaps that would change (I do believe this). In 09 and 2010 they are bringing over the Europen phenom Tommy Searle so we'll see what happens. As far as the tranny/suspension XC/XCW thing, KTM is giving the riders in the US lots of choices here. Maybe to many. It doesn't mean it's bad or wrong it just opens a big debate and choice issue over on KTM Talk. Anywhere else in the world there is no such thing as an XC model in the KTM lineup. You get a MX model and an EXC model. Case closed. If you want an off road bike you buy the EXC. "IF" KTM had a 6 speed tranny like the GG bikes (and oh how so many, myself included dream for this) the tranny thing would be a non issue most likely.

You really gotta respect what KTM brings to the table though through the years. They are more than willing to take big chances and do things differently. They were always at the forefront of change with things like forward mounted shocks, high breather frames, Lectron carbs, disk brakes, water cooling, USD forks, single shocks with linkage then the PDS, hydro clutch, and now the e-start 2 strokes. Sure would be boring if we couldn't bitch about all this stuff now wouldn't it LOL.

I love KTM, it's all I've ever ridden since 1976. I will also admit they have had their share of issues and short comings like ANY brand. I'm to old (mature???) to really get all worried and defensive about it like some who you would think you were stealing their first born. I also really like almost everything I read about the GG bikes. The light, nimble and accurate steering that feels planted, overall light feeling of the bike, smooth torquey motors with that 6 speed tranny, really decent suspension out of the box (with linkage..yup), super easy pull hydro clutch, renound gnarly terrain ability, good reliability AND that different factor. These are the important things that matter to me personally and the GG seems to have it covered. There are some smaller things that bother/concern me as well but they are less important in the big picture (I think).

So Rick, if/when you get your GG you know your buddies are going to rib you about everything any time they can with the GG bike but you'll also know they are going to be very curious and want to give it a ride if you let em. It takes a strong person to go against the main street and not be a follower. If you don't take the chance you will never know. Life's all about making choices...it's only $$$


Skidad in MA