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Enduro Suspension Tuning & maintenance of Enduro forks, shocks, etc


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  #1  
Old 04-06-2017, 03:17 PM
Zman's Avatar
Zman Zman is offline
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Default KYB SSS Valving Input Please

I put a full 2008 YZ450 Front end on my 2000 GasGas XC300. I am 51yrs old, (riding 42 yrs). 6' 4", 250lbs in street clothes.*I enjoy all kinds of riding but prefer difficult single track, trails and hills.*(probably*B-C Enduro). *
*
I changed springs to Racetech 48 with 5mm of preload.* I have tried to soften the forks about 7 times so far and below is what I have now for a tune.

The forks are still too stiff on trail trash even with the compression adjusters complete loose. They work great for big hits but they are too stiff most for most all else.
*
Midvalve
*
Nut
Washer
11mm*(x1) 0.25mm
12mm (x1) 0.11mm
14mm (x1) 0.11mm
16mm (x1) 0.11mm
18mm (x1) 0.11mm
13mm (x1) 0.11mm
20mm x0.045 (x3)* 0.11mm (Stock had 4)
Piston
20mm x 0.045" (x2)*0.11mm (Stock had 4)
17mm x 0.045" (x2) 0.11mm (Stock had 3)
11mm x 0.01" (x2) 0.25mm
17mm x 0.01" (x3) 0.3mm
17mm x 0.045" (x1) 0.11mm (moved from above)
Collar
*
Estimated Midvalve Float* 0.5mm (as I removed*two*0.11mm shims)
*
Base Valve
*
​Nut
Cup Washer 4 holes
​Spring
big silver washer with collar
​​Piston
​32mm (x9) 0.11mm
20mm (x1) 0.11mm (from*midvalve stack)
32mm (x6) 0.11mm* (stock was 18x 32mm)
30mm (x1) 0.11mm
28mm (x1) 0.11mm
26mm (x1) 0.11mm
24mm (x1) 0.11mm
22mm (x1) 0.11mm
20mm (x1) 0.11mm
18mm (x1) 0.11mm
16mm (x1) 0.11mm
20mm (x2) 1.58mm
11mm (x2) 0.25mm
*
310cc 5w BelRay oil
*
*
It seems that the compression screws do not have a big impact on the dampening.* Any input would be appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 04-07-2017, 12:38 AM
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I know sht about actual valving. I cheated and a mate revalved to KTech Club specs. Much betterer.

Opening to full open on the clickers can be more harsh as it blows through then gets stiff real quick. Best keep within several clicks of middle and find best comprise. Then revalve if that's not good enough. Any more clicks is out of range.

Sorry can't give actual valving specs as I don't have them. But they can be made good for technical.
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  #3  
Old 04-07-2017, 06:40 PM
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Why all this lbs talk.. now I have to do conversions!

Being YZF450 forks, they'll probably have quite firm ICS rates. This adds quite a bit of firmness, especially when added with firmer preloaded springs as well.

.5mm is quite a large float, and your mid very soft.

I'd go back to around .4mm float, and a more traditional mid valve.

Address the basevalve!!

​​Piston
​32mm (x9) 0.11mm
20mm (x1) 0.11mm (from*midvalve stack) --- I don't like crossovers this small. I'd be more around 26/28mm if using.
32mm (x6) 0.11mm* (stock was 18x 32mm)
30mm (x1) 0.11mm
28mm (x1) 0.11mm
26mm (x1) 0.11mm
24mm (x1) 0.11mm
22mm (x1) 0.11mm
20mm (x1) 0.11mm
18mm (x1) 0.11mm
16mm (x1) 0.11mm ----> this is your main issue.
----------add clamp 14mm x.3mm
20mm (x2) 1.58mm
11mm (x2) 0.25mm

Simply changing the clamp to a 14/13mm shim x .3mm you'll soften the whole stack up. You may wish to pull a couple more face shims as well.

Also, considering that you've upped spring rates, you may wish to add a bit more rebound control as well.
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Old 04-07-2017, 07:02 PM
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Jakobi Jakobi is offline
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Note, just checked spring rates, and they should be fine. Even if you have the firmer ICS springs.

So I'd add another face shim back to both sides of the mid valve. That will close your float to approx .39mm.

Then soften the basevalve to something like the following.

32 (6)
26
32 (6)
30
28
..
14.3 (or 13)

Then test.
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  #5  
Old 04-08-2017, 12:15 AM
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Thank you both.

Jakobi -So to make sure I understand you correctly I should modify it like this?

Midvalve
*
Nut
Washer
11mm*(x1) 0.25mm
12mm (x1) 0.11mm
14mm (x1) 0.11mm
16mm (x1) 0.11mm
18mm (x1) 0.11mm
13mm (x1) 0.11mm
20mm x0.045 (x4)* 0.11mm (Stock had 4)
Piston
20mm x 0.045" (x3)*0.11mm (Stock had 4)
17mm x 0.045" (x2) 0.11mm (Stock had 3)
11mm x 0.01" (x2) 0.25mm
17mm x 0.01" (x3) 0.3mm
17mm x 0.045" (x2) 0.11mm (moved from above)
Collar
*

*
Base Valve
*
​Nut
Cup Washer 4 holes
​Spring
big silver washer with collar
​​Piston
​32mm (x6) 0.11mm
26mm or 28mm (x1) 0.11mm (I will see if I can find one in a set of WP43s)
32mm (x6) 0.11mm* (stock was 18x 32mm)
30mm (x1) 0.11mm
28mm (x1) 0.11mm
26mm (x1) 0.11mm
24mm (x1) 0.11mm
22mm (x1) 0.11mm
20mm (x1) 0.11mm
18mm (x1) 0.11mm
16mm (x1) 0.11mm
14mm or 13mm (x1) 0.3mm [U](I will see if I can find one in a set of WP43s)
Do I remove both 20mm and the 11mm or do I keep the 11mm?

Thank you for the help!
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  #6  
Old 04-08-2017, 02:36 AM
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Jakobi Jakobi is offline
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The shims below the main stack are referred to as the bleed stack. By running as below they don't block any ports off, which isn't needed for off road so I'd keep them as is:

20mm (x2) 1.58mm
11mm (x2) 0.25mm

Have a look at the assembly and where they sit and you'll see what I mean.

Everything above looks pretty good.
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  #7  
Old 11-10-2018, 04:16 PM
memphis2857 memphis2857 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zman View Post
I rode the first day with about 6 clicks of compression dampening. It was too stiff for the terrain. The forks worked fine for larger bumps but the small trail trash just wore me out over time. I started thinking I am probably getting too old and.... LOL Nope - I just need to get the tune right!



Day 2 I softened the forks by opening the compression clickers all the way with no clicks. I also softened the rear two clicks. That combination worked pretty well but I dont like having the adjuster topped out with no adjustment so I want to have some ability to soften it even more.



These forks came from a YZ450F 2008 or 2009 and I have never changed the ICS pressure springs. I have heard the stock 450 ICS springs could be a little heavy for enduro/trail riding. I order some 1.8 ICS springs from RaceTech.



The install is pretty easy, but I noticed the stock springs are 10mm shorter than the new ones. I read on TT that you don't need to use the plastic spacers with the aftermarket springs, so I tried the install without the spacer. I quickly found out that I could not bleed the inner chamber properly with out the spacer and the rod would not fully extend.





Having 7mm preload or a 5mm gap in the ICS spring did not seem like a good idea so I decided to machine the stock plastic spacer shorter to a total of 9.4mm. This gave me about a 0.5mm gap once it was assembled. The inner chamber bled all the air and the piston extended fully, like normal. It appears that having a bigger ICS spring gap without the spacer is a problem.



When I finished the first fork I compared it side by side (compression by hand) with the fork with the stock ICS spring and the lighter spring feels initially more compliant. Both forks on the bike I could tell it had a softer feel and I needed to add 6 clicks of compression.



We just had our first snow but I will try to sneak out and see how it feels.





Has anyone else changed ICS springs and how did you address the spacer?


I have a 2018 with the AOS forks and changed the ICS springs. Stock in them are 2.1 and on advice from a couple different timers I went all the way down to a 1.0. I too freaked a little about the pre-load but a quick call to race tech eased my mind. They said that a little pre-load is actually a good thing and stated it wouldn’t hurt a thing. The springs made a huge difference but a little valving work is still needed. I think the stack needs softened and probably go back up a few rates on the ICS springs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #8  
Old 11-10-2018, 05:13 PM
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The Marzocchi PFP forks run a load of preload on the ICS spring, and then the PFP allows you to wind on even more.

I prefer the stock ones with a little free play. It's not an issue that the damper rod doesn't extend all the way back on it's own. You can still pull it out the last bit by hand and it should extend smooth with damping. Once installed you still have the outer spring keeping it at full extension.

Allows the first bit of travel to cavitate a bit and then the pressure ramps up. I don't think this is a bad thing for a trail setup. End of the day it's just another variable.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:17 PM
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Thank you for the input. I took it for a quick spin and it feels better but I still need to go for a few more rides before I put it away for the year.
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  #10  
Old 11-14-2018, 06:11 AM
Thompo Thompo is offline
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I finally got my forks close to working how I believe they should.

Shims were
6x 32x0.1
22
6x 32 ->16x0.1
14x0.3
14x0.3
Flipped bleed stack

After reading how you got on with the 12mm clamp I looked at my stack and had a 14x0.1 and 11x0.3 in my bleed stack so I swapped a few things around and ended up with.

6x32x0.1
22
6x 32 -> 16x0.1
14x0.1
11x0.3
14x0.3
Flipped Bleed stack

So effectively now have an 11mm clamp, coupled with 0.48 springs and raising forks through the clamps 10mm (lowered front) it finally feels better than the sticky marzocchi 45s they replaced.

My thoughts, i think my 06/07 YZ250f forks are a bit longer than the marzocchis. This was putting my weight back and slackening head angle, making the forks less active/harsh and leaving the front vague.

Would like a little more small bump/trail trash compliance. Was out at a place recently, quite rocky all 2nd, 3rd gear tight tracks (no jumps), didn't use the last 3" of travel.

Reb/Mid stock but
0.3 float in 1 leg and 0.4 in the other.

Tempted to try 0.4 float in both legs and depending on how that goes maybe play with the ICS spring.
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