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Enduro Electrical & Wiring Lighting, Ignition, Wiring, Plugs, etc.


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  #11  
Old 10-07-2020, 12:54 PM
Neil E. Neil E. is offline
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Originally Posted by gg3 View Post
Farmerj- I am leaning towards the idea that the failing starter is a symptom of another problem, not the problem.
Interesting hypothesis. On the old estart system, my issue has always been engagement between the pinion and ring gear. Rarely would engage cold, but would almost always engage hot. So I use the estart as a "restarter".

As to the newer machines if find it hard to believe that the gears are cut so poorly that they bind under load. The only suggestion I have is to make sure there is reasonable end play on the bendix. The bendix cams open to do it's job of forcing gear engagement. The amount of travel is stopped by the clip ring on the shaft.

I'd cam the bendix open by hand and measure the overall length. Compare this to the space available between the case bosses. The idea being that the camming force is held by the clip ring. If shims were added to the bendix shaft, then some of the camming force would be applied against the case bosses instead of the clip ring. This would load the starter motor.

From all the talk of gear jamming I'd wonder if some part of the system was flexing enough to cause misalignment of the gears.


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  #12  
Old 10-07-2020, 01:42 PM
Doc Brown Doc Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
I haven't measured, as I don't own an electric start GasGas. Nor have I checked the schematics. However, I presume the current through the starter will be much more than 20 A. So the fuse cannot be in the starter's circuit, I presume?
Or did I misunderstand?
Honestly, I am not good with electric things. All I know there is a 20amps fuse on the starter relay.
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2020, 03:31 PM
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gg3 gg3 is offline
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I have had the case off ,fully extended the bendix to check for any contact with the case & then measured case face to bendix gear & case face to ring gear (excluding gasket).Bendix seems close enough to fully engage & clear the case. In my case the starter worked fine for a long time before playing up.The gears on the pinion & bendix look in good condition & mesh together well. I think it is the pinion shaft & bendix shaft don't sit exactly parallel & close enough together. Possible wear at each end of the bendix shaft housing? As I have replaced the bendix cover with an AS3 cover it is most likely the shaft housing in the case. With bendix out & bendix cover off,& holding the starter button, the pinion shaft spins freely with no visible wobble, looks straight & true so am going to eliminate that shaft as the problem. So how do I check the bendix shaft housings align & bendix shaft runs parallel to the pinion? AAAHHHHH!!!
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2020, 06:19 PM
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Gasser Nate Gasser Nate is offline
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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
I haven't measured, as I don't own an electric start GasGas. Nor have I checked the schematics. However, I presume the current through the starter will be much more than 20 A. So the fuse cannot be in the starter's circuit, I presume?
Or did I misunderstand?

Sent fra min YAL-L21 via Tapatalk
Nope you are all over it. No starter circuit is fused, only the low current switching side is.
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  #15  
Old 10-12-2020, 11:01 AM
Doc Brown Doc Brown is offline
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This morning I received the new starter and too my surprise it is an OEM one and not a clone.

All I did was to lube the gear and o-ring and 5 minutes later it was installed. We had 6 degrees (43 F) this morning so it was pretty cool. I checked the voltage and that was good with 13.4 volts. Then I tried to start and: nothing except the well known clunking noise Tried 5 or 6 times then it turned the engine over once.

I then kick started it and let the engine warm up. When the engine is warm it starts without problems. It immediately fires up. I also tried to start it with the kill switch pressed to see if it cranks the engine. It does it perfectly but only when the engine is hot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEo2...nel=stevedaman
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  #16  
Old 10-12-2020, 04:15 PM
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Gasser Nate Gasser Nate is offline
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Can you post a video of what the starter is doing wrong when cold? In the video the starter is cranking like a champion, nothing wrong at all.
And also, a pretty big point, is that your fuel tap is not in the On position, it is slightly off. The fuel tap is not mounted parallel so the little pointer arrow needs to line up with the appropriate position. Wondering if it is slightly starving the bike of fuel?
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  #17  
Old 10-13-2020, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Gasser Nate View Post
Can you post a video of what the starter is doing wrong when cold? In the video the starter is cranking like a champion, nothing wrong at all.
And also, a pretty big point, is that your fuel tap is not in the On position, it is slightly off. The fuel tap is not mounted parallel so the little pointer arrow needs to line up with the appropriate position. Wondering if it is slightly starving the bike of fuel?
The fuel tap plays no role, it works even when 10 degrees off. It might have an effect when riding thoug. But not when starting. But it has nothing to do with the starter not cranking.

Will try to make a video showing what it does when the engine is cold.

In the meantine, in this video you see exactly what my bike does when the engine is cold: (first 20 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXXj...terPowersports
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  #18  
Old 10-13-2020, 03:18 AM
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Gasser Nate Gasser Nate is offline
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Ok, a few things to test is obviously a load test on the battery. Dont even bother assuming, get it tested with a proper digital reader that gives an output in CCA.

Im sure you have installed proper leads including a dedicated earth from the battery to the starter, but I also added an additional earth from the coil mount where the main harness earths to and back to the battery. This helps with voltage drops and charge rates.

Now when you are testing the bike cold clip on a volt meter to the starter motor terminal and check for voltage there. Obviously you won?t get a full 12v but you should get around 9.5-10v. This should be present when the button is pressed and not drop out whilst pressed at all. If good you can eliminate starter switch low current side, solenoid etc. If not then further voltage drop tests will need to be conducted to determine where the problem lies.

If constant good voltage is present then the issue is with the starter motor itself or bearing/bendix related drag.

If I had the bike in front of me I?m confident I could diagnose it in under an hour. They aren?t a complicated system at all. Mine has over 120 hours of trouble free use, with a mates that has over 400 hours with only new brushes as replacements.

Sorry for the essay I just know it can be sorted and want to help!
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  #19  
Old 10-13-2020, 11:35 AM
Doc Brown Doc Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by Gasser Nate View Post
Can you post a video of what the starter is doing wrong when cold?
From today, engine cold. Battery at 13.3 volts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4O7...nel=stevedaman
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  #20  
Old 10-13-2020, 12:02 PM
Doc Brown Doc Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by Gasser Nate View Post
Ok, a few things to test is obviously a load test on the battery. Dont even bother assuming, get it tested with a proper digital reader that gives an output in CCA.

Im sure you have installed proper leads including a dedicated earth from the battery to the starter, but I also added an additional earth from the coil mount where the main harness earths to and back to the battery. This helps with voltage drops and charge rates.

Now when you are testing the bike cold clip on a volt meter to the starter motor terminal and check for voltage there. Obviously you won?t get a full 12v but you should get around 9.5-10v. This should be present when the button is pressed and not drop out whilst pressed at all. If good you can eliminate starter switch low current side, solenoid etc. If not then further voltage drop tests will need to be conducted to determine where the problem lies.

If constant good voltage is present then the issue is with the starter motor itself or bearing/bendix related drag.

If I had the bike in front of me I?m confident I could diagnose it in under an hour. They aren?t a complicated system at all. Mine has over 120 hours of trouble free use, with a mates that has over 400 hours with only new brushes as replacements.

Sorry for the essay I just know it can be sorted and want to help!
Don't worry Nate, all is good and I like technical essays.

I can't get the battery tested but I can tell you it is not battery related. I will not investigate in this direction anymore as it is a waste of time. Don't get me wrong I have tested this excessively and the problem is always the same whatever battery type is connected.
I even connected a professional start unit I can lend anytime from the car workshop next to my garage. With this you can start a tank. It has 1800 CA and 9000 amps.

All wires and leads are as from the factory I did not change anything on this bike. What I did is I sanded the paint off from the bracket where the starter is attached too and also where the ground cable is attached to this bracket. On the 2018 of my buddy I have installed much thicker cables from battery to starter relay and from there to starter and starter bracket, thicker positive lead and an additional lead from earth point at ignition coil back to the battery. It did not change anything on his bike.

I will again measure the voltage at the starter motor when the button is pressed and the starter spins. From my memory I had 11.3 volts there but I will do it again in the next few days and let you know the value. No clue when I will do this as I am pretty busy at the mo and my garage is 20 miles from where I live. But I have this on my list.
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