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Enduro Chassis & Body Enduro Frame, Plastic, Brakes, Bars, Controls, wheels, tires, sprockets & gearing.


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  #11  
Old 04-14-2018, 11:49 AM
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john r b john r b is offline
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Try back bleeding. from bottom to top.


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  #12  
Old 04-16-2018, 09:31 AM
sneaky98gt sneaky98gt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john r b View Post
Try back bleeding. from bottom to top.
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Originally Posted by SS109 View Post
It's a common fix on Kawasaki's running Nissin brakes. If it doesn't fix it then something else is wrong IME.
I concur.

I've bled it forwards and backwards, literally put quarts of fluid through it both ways. It seems better right after I do that, in the garage, but it could easily be a placebo. When I actually ride it, within a few minutes, I notice that it's right back like it was before (though, interestingly, it doesn't seem to get any worse over time). I'm confident that there's not any air in it, unless that bleed nipple is letting some back in. I still intend to swap that out sometime soon, since it'll be cheap, but the fact that it doesn't continue getting more mushy over time leads me to believe that's not the issue.

Let me ask this: when you squeeze on the lever really hard, like harder than you typically would to actually brake, does your caliper move / flex very much? It's not a ton, but mine definitely flexes a good bit. I try the same thing on the Nissin system on my XR400, and it flexes just a bit, but nowhere near as much as the Gasser. You have to look really hard on the Honda to see it move / flex, but it's easily noticeable on the GasGas.

I suppose if something is moving / flexing that isn't suppose to be, then this could be allowing the caliper piston to continue moving outward a little bit, and thus cause a less firm lever, right? Is this normal? What might cause this?
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  #13  
Old 04-16-2018, 01:32 PM
Moto7man Moto7man is offline
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Originally Posted by sneaky98gt View Post
I concur.

I've bled it forwards and backwards, literally put quarts of fluid through it both ways. It seems better right after I do that, in the garage, but it could easily be a placebo. When I actually ride it, within a few minutes, I notice that it's right back like it was before (though, interestingly, it doesn't seem to get any worse over time). I'm confident that there's not any air in it, unless that bleed nipple is letting some back in. I still intend to swap that out sometime soon, since it'll be cheap, but the fact that it doesn't continue getting more mushy over time leads me to believe that's not the issue.

Let me ask this: when you squeeze on the lever really hard, like harder than you typically would to actually brake, does your caliper move / flex very much? It's not a ton, but mine definitely flexes a good bit. I try the same thing on the Nissin system on my XR400, and it flexes just a bit, but nowhere near as much as the Gasser. You have to look really hard on the Honda to see it move / flex, but it's easily noticeable on the GasGas.

I suppose if something is moving / flexing that isn't suppose to be, then this could be allowing the caliper piston to continue moving outward a little bit, and thus cause a less firm lever, right? Is this normal? What might cause this?
When the caliper is lined up with the disc rotor, you should not have hardly any movement at all.

On bleeding, go to your front brake lever and and back the adjustment screw all the way out. This will allow the master cylinder plunger to fill with fluid and push the air out of the system and firm up the lever feel.
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Last edited by Moto7man; 04-16-2018 at 01:32 PM. Reason: grammer
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  #14  
Old 06-21-2018, 01:56 AM
Thompo Thompo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaky98gt View Post
I concur.
........

Let me ask this: when you squeeze on the lever really hard, like harder than you typically would to actually brake, does your caliper move / flex very much? It's not a ton, but mine definitely flexes a good bit. I try the same thing on the Nissin system on my XR400, and it flexes just a bit, but nowhere near as much as the Gasser. You have to look really hard on the Honda to see it move / flex, but it's easily noticeable on the GasGas.
I have been struggling with my front brake on my 2011 too.

Its been bled forwards/reverse/on the bike/ off the bike etc with both DOT4 and 5.1.
100% no air in the system.

My Master cylinder is 11mm Ive tried my 2011mc and friends 2005mc and feels the same.

As you have noted, when pulling the lever excessively hard you can see the caliper flex.

I had CNC aftermarket levers, ive found the standard lever to give better feel and as previously mentioned fit a solid banjo rather than brake switch to firm it up slightly.

As for the rear both my bike and my friends 05 needed rear calipers.
The solid side (opposite piston) has either worn or been bent over time leading to the pads (and disc) wearing like this /| rather than parallel ||.

I noticed this slighty on the front too when swapping pads last night

EDIT# Pic of rear caliper attached. Mine was very badly worn, might have been run with pads on the wrong side or something (previous owners spanner work was woeful!)
Mates 05 was similar but to a much lesser extent.
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  #15  
Old 06-26-2018, 02:53 PM
sneaky98gt sneaky98gt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thompo View Post
I have been struggling with my front brake on my 2011 too.

Its been bled forwards/reverse/on the bike/ off the bike etc with both DOT4 and 5.1.
100% no air in the system.

My Master cylinder is 11mm Ive tried my 2011mc and friends 2005mc and feels the same.

As you have noted, when pulling the lever excessively hard you can see the caliper flex.

I had CNC aftermarket levers, ive found the standard lever to give better feel and as previously mentioned fit a solid banjo rather than brake switch to firm it up slightly.

As for the rear both my bike and my friends 05 needed rear calipers.
The solid side (opposite piston) has either worn or been bent over time leading to the pads (and disc) wearing like this /| rather than parallel ||.

I noticed this slighty on the front too when swapping pads last night

EDIT# Pic of rear caliper attached. Mine was very badly worn, might have been run with pads on the wrong side or something (previous owners spanner work was woeful!)
Mates 05 was similar but to a much lesser extent.
I'm glad you brought this back up, because I forgot to post up my findings.

First off, a new bleed nipple made zero difference. I'm still quite confident that I've never had any air in the system.

Secondly, I got around to measuring the caliper flex. I was seeing around 0.015" of flex when I squeezed the lever all the way to the bars (that's about 0.4mm for y'all metric folk), which was a lot in my opinion.

I checked my XR400R with a very similar Nissin brake system, and didn't see more than 0.002"-0.003" (0.05-0.075 mm). That's a pretty sizable difference in the two.

Upon closer inspection, I realized that the two calipers mounted in the exact same fashion, so I decided to swap them. Having both of them side-by-side, the reason for the additional flex became obvious. See the pictures below.

So with the XR caliper fitted on the EC250, and everything bled properly, I checked the flex again and saw about 0.005" (0.125mm). A very marked improvement, but still not quite as good as the XR. A closer look at the master cylinders gave me a reasonable explanation: the distance between the pivot bolt and piston is about 25% smaller on the GG than the XR, which means that the lever has more leverage on the GG.

Real world riding results? Noticeable improvement. It's still not as firm as what I'm used to riding. That said, that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with it, just that it's different. After riding it for a while and getting used to it, and then riding friends' bikes, I've actually really come to like it. It has more than enough power to lock the tire and throw you over the bars with a good 2-finger squeeze, but it has a very wide modulation range in the middle, compared to some friends' bikes (ahem, orange ones) that transition from "off" to "throw you over the bars" with very small changes in lever force.

I also noticed that the pads / rotor were wearing at a bit of an angle, almost certainly due to the abnormally large amount of flex in the caliper. This probably accounts for some of the lack of firmness that I still feel today even after putting a more rigid caliper on. I plan on replacing the rotor whenever I wear out the pads, probably sometime later this year.



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  #16  
Old 07-04-2018, 04:02 AM
Thompo Thompo is offline
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I think I read somewhere else that the newer more compact caliper was fitted to a number of brands around the same time to save weight and would explain a bit of the flex issue.

If you have swapped the MC over, check the bore, I had a 1/2" (12.7mm) from China vs 11mm standard, brake felt firm (wooden) but performed poorly with the 1/2" MC.

Piston Dia of the Caliper may also have changed, your XR caliper has 27mm pistions, I think the newer GG caliper is 25mm (was on rear, never checked front).
The reduced dia of both the MC and Caliper pistons equates to a much higher clamping force that could emphasis the flex and add to "soft" lever feel.

My latest setup is standard caliper and MC, brake switch removed, lever feel is ok-good.
Biggest improvement has been a set of S33 offroad pads, I had EBC reds on previously and had to really pull the lever to slowdown, which leads to flexing etc.
Brake is now amazing! plenty of modulation and enough to lock up/endo with 1 finger.
http://www.goldfrenusa.com/brake-pads-S33-offroad.htm
worth a shot
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  #17  
Old 07-29-2018, 03:50 PM
ReaptheHeat ReaptheHeat is offline
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Just picked up a 2012 EC 300. I am also suffering from the spongy front brake, as well as a little bit of front brake drag. I can easily grab the front all the way to the bar.

- Installed new pads
- Bled System, conventional and reverse
- Hung caliper overnight
- Zip tied lever to bar overnight
- Lever Adjustment screw has play and allows plunger to fully decompress

I checked the caliper pistons, they look clean with no corrosion. I did not pull them out of the caliper, but that might be next. One piston extends faster than the other, and requires me to push on the "good" piston while pumping to force the other one all the way out. Normal? They retract back slightly when off the lever. They take some force to push back in.

Can't find any leaks. My next step is to replace the brake switch banjo with a regular one.

Does anyone by chance know what master cylinder rebuild and brake caliper rebuild kits fit? Also might need a brake line.

I have a WR250R with the dual piston Nissin brakes and holy hell are they powerful compared to the GasGas!

Edit: Looks like I have a Nissin 11mm, and the 2005 Honda CR450 M/C rebuild kit will fit. Does anyone know what fits for the caliper rebuild?

Last edited by ReaptheHeat; 07-29-2018 at 07:28 PM.
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  #18  
Old 07-30-2018, 01:23 AM
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I just ordered a rebuild kit from powerhouse in uk but there willbe others. You need to pull the seals out and clean up the grooves. A brass brush on a dremel works well but otherwise just slow and wasy by hand. Yeah normal banjo bolt.


Check the brake retaining pin and sliding caliper pin. Again I think I got new from powerhouse, or might have been ebay. Look for oemcycles on ebay or just search, they often carry useful stuff and free shipping often.
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  #19  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:24 AM
ReaptheHeat ReaptheHeat is offline
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Originally Posted by (F5) View Post
I just ordered a rebuild kit from powerhouse in uk but there willbe others. You need to pull the seals out and clean up the grooves. A brass brush on a dremel works well but otherwise just slow and wasy by hand. Yeah normal banjo bolt.


Check the brake retaining pin and sliding caliper pin. Again I think I got new from powerhouse, or might have been ebay. Look for oemcycles on ebay or just search, they often carry useful stuff and free shipping often.
Will be doing the M/C rebuild and new banjo Thursday. I'll update then. Really want to ride my "new" to me bike but unfortunately don't feel confident in the braking capabilities.
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Old 08-03-2018, 10:42 AM
ReaptheHeat ReaptheHeat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (F5) View Post
I just ordered a rebuild kit from powerhouse in uk but there willbe others. You need to pull the seals out and clean up the grooves. A brass brush on a dremel works well but otherwise just slow and wasy by hand. Yeah normal banjo bolt.


Check the brake retaining pin and sliding caliper pin. Again I think I got new from powerhouse, or might have been ebay. Look for oemcycles on ebay or just search, they often carry useful stuff and free shipping often.

Just did M/C rebuild and zip tied overnight. Also replaced the lock nut with a washer to reduce freeplay. Feels acceptable but definitely desire more.

Bike is 7 years old. Maybe the SS brake line is busted/worn?
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