2019 300 EC starter issues

[Doc Brown]

2019 EC 300

Starter worked flawless, even with a smaller Shido battery. It never ever hesitated or had similar issues as the 2018's. On Saturday I rode with a friend and the starter worked flawless. After the ride I washed the bike as usual.

Today I changed the jetting and when I started the bike it hesitated almost exactly like in the well known video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXXj...terPowersports

It just turned the engine half a turn then stopped and made a whining noise. I tried several times and always waited about 20 seconds between the starting attempts. As the voltage indicator on the dash said the battery is empty I measured the voltage which was 13.2 volts. However, I charged the battery and tried again once it was full. Funny that though the battery was full (13,75 volts), the dash showed it was empty. I tried to start several times, but always the same problem, the engine did not crank, just half a turn or so and the bike made weird whining noises as long as I kept the button pushed.

I then tried a different battery of my friends GP 300 but still no joy, just a few turns then a whining noise.

So i checked and cleaned all connections from battery to starter relay and so on, but this did not change anything. I decided to take the starter and bendix cover off. I realized that the starter was pretty hot when I took it off and it smelled like burnt metal. I held it against the engine and pushed the button and it spun. I cleaned the gears, bendix and starter shaft applied some fresh grease and put the starter motor back in. Needless to say it did not start.

I kicked it and it started immediately. I warmed up the engine riding up and down the road as I wanted to see if the starter motor will crank the engine when it was hot. When I tried to start the hot engine all I heard was a clicking noise from the starter relay. Close to kicking the fucking bike from the stand I went for a break.
When I had cooled down I measured continuity of the starter and immediately knew it was toast. The starter smelled like burnt copper and insulation paint. When i opened it the first thing that fell out was piece of copper wire.





Called my friend and asked him if I can take his starter for testing and he said no problem. So installed his starter, pushed the button and BINGO! It cranked the engine over like mad. I tried ten times. I removed the spark plug cap and tried and it cranked like mad. The starter did not even get warm though I let it crank for almost 10 seconds at least 6 times.

I am puzzled now as I can not imagine why my starter motor failed to crank the engine. A new starter motor is on order and should arrive on Monday. As far as I know a starter motor is either good or it doesn't work. In 45 years of wrenching I have never heard that a starter motor gets weaker.

What do you think? I'd be happy to hear your opinions.

[gg3]

Think I have the same starter motor issue.Are you ordering an OEM starter?

[Doc Brown]

Originally Posted by gg3

Think I have the same starter motor issue.Are you ordering an OEM starter?

Yes, I have ordered a new OEM one. Bloody hell, they charge me USD 200.- including USD 18.- shipping costs.

I gave the old starter to a friend who thinks that a guy he knows can re-coil it. If it is less than USD 100.- I will let him do it and keep it as a spare.

In the other thread I saw that you have almost the same problem. What I do not get is why the starter didn't crank the engine over. The much older starter of my friends 2018 GP worked well in my bike. Never had trouble before...

Do you think that a starter motor can deteriorate???

[gg3]

Had a discussion with the auto electrician who had a look at my bike. They are as perplexed as we are. He load tested the new starter several times ,it spun up fast & plenty of torque. With the starter out, they turned the gear assembly with a screwdriver by hand & it rotates freely & easily. Put the starter back in & it does a half turn & locks up. After 2-3 goes gets very hot. With the plug out it cranks over with no issues. They are fairly sure the starter is ok. So now not sure where to look next.

[farmerj]

Doc - All I can add to this thread at this point is that both I and my dealer believe that multiple attempts at cranking the engine when it will not turn over is very hard on the starters. It's like the energy goes to the starter but can't be released, so builds up heat in the starter causing failure.

I will also add that we both believe that the GasGas starters are better/stronger than the aftermarket ones (I've tried a couple of cheaper ones).

My situation is exactly like that of gg3.

If starter motors can get weaker, that would answer a lot of questions!

Jeff

[Doc Brown]

Originally Posted by gg3

Had a discussion with the auto electrician who had a look at my bike. They are as perplexed as we are. He load tested the new starter several times ,it spun up fast & plenty of torque. With the starter out, they turned the gear assembly with a screwdriver by hand & it rotates freely & easily. Put the starter back in & it does a half turn & locks up. After 2-3 goes gets very hot. With the plug out it cranks over with no issues. They are fairly sure the starter is ok. So now not sure where to look next.

I admit I am stumped because when I installed my friends OEM starter the problem was gone.
So I have now two possible problems

Either I have the 2018 blocking problem and that killed my starter when I tried to get the bike started. Or I had a problem with a knackered starter.
I'd prefer the latter but fear as soon as I have the new starter installed the problem will be back. Though it worked fine with my mates starter

Maybe you have heard that Rieju still assembles "our" GasGas model under the new name Rieju. I asked a dealer in Germany what they had changed except from the new plastics and stickers. And he said they changed the starter motor and allegedly it comes now from a Japanese company called MITSUBA. Unfortunately we don't know if the other internals (pinions, shafts) are still the same.
Till today I was unable to get a Rieju Spare Parts Manual.

[Doc Brown]

Originally Posted by farmerj

Doc - All I can add to this thread at this point is that both I and my dealer believe that multiple attempts at cranking the engine when it will not turn over is very hard on the starters. It's like the energy goes to the starter but can't be released, so builds up heat in the starter causing failure.

I will also add that we both believe that the GasGas starters are better/stronger than the aftermarket ones (I've tried a couple of cheaper ones).

My situation is exactly like that of gg3.

If starter motors can get weaker, that would answer a lot of questions!

Jeff

Thank you Jeff! I wonder why there is a 20amps fuse. Shouldn't that fuse avoid that the starter burns?
And why did the other starter work fine while mine seemed to be blocked?

There are some unanswered questions. I will now try to find out if a starter can weaken over time as this could be an explanation for my problem.

On the GP 2018 we have exactly the same problem as you and gg3

On the GP we polished the plain bearing in the small bendix cover where the trunnion of the bendix sits. We also added 3 gaskets as we thought the cover might apply pressure on the bendix creating friction. But that was not the case

[gg3]

Farmerj- Right on with the binding,overload,heat,starter damage.I am leaning towards the idea that the failing starter is a symptom of another problem,not the problem.Tonight I taped the bendix fully extended,put it in,put the old starter spline in & tried turning it by hand.Turns much easier than expected,not much load at all.But I am turning it very slow compared to a starter motor,so operated the kick by hand slowly.Everything turned without binding,real smooth?But as soon as I pushed the kick harder to normal operating speed,it jammed.On inspection the bendix was moving away from the pinion gear & locking crown to crown.Keep in mind the bendix cover is off so understandable.With the cover on slow rotation all good,fast rotation locked up.
With the cover off I held the bendix with a rag,pushing in & up to keep it tight against the pinion gear.Then hit the starter(don't try this kids),it turned over really well.Then locked again as I was concentrating on not getting my fingers dragged into the bendix. Not sure how to prove/disprove this is the problem.Will dwell on it.Sorry got lengthy.

[gg3]

https://youtu.be/-QsvLt9rT1s
short video of above waffle.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Doc Brown

I wonder why there is a 20amps fuse. Shouldn't that fuse avoid that the starter burns?

I haven't measured, as I don't own an electric start GasGas. Nor have I checked the schematics. However, I presume the current through the starter will be much more than 20 A. So the fuse cannot be in the starter's circuit, I presume?
Or did I misunderstand?

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