I've about had it with Shivers.

[BrentMartell]

I don't think this subject will ever go away, will it?

GMP, I think, know's what he is talking about. I am a fan of the rebound being a major issue.

I am not promoting KTM on a GG site but they work well. I rode the 2010 in Portugal and the 2012 in Finland. Very good for stockers.

I like to call it REFINED, more so than, better. My 45's seem to be OK now but they are not as refined as I want them to be. That is where I personally would like to go with my suspension. Confidence inspiring is what a good suspension IS. : )

[GMP]

Ya think?

I'm at the point where the fork does not do anything wrong, and works quite well in a range of terrain at my level. Its not a super plush ride in the rocks, but its not abusive either and tracks great. It also works surprisingly well in the sand considering it was not dialed in for that. Some pretty fast stuff with medium whoops are not scary at all. Big stuff may be another story.

[boyscout]

1.Comparing a 4stroke suspension to a 2 stroke really is not fair. The heavier bike should always feel better, all thing being equal.
2.If you have your bike set up to run thru nasty rocks it will bottom out and feel harsh on big hits. Closed cartridge forks are better about controlling this but they will still blow thru on big hits.
3. Make sure your not doing all this front fork testing on a bib mousse, you'll be chasing your tail for a while. Make sure your doing it on the same loop with the same tire pressure. Tires are part of your suspension.
4.Bottoming out your suspension occasionally is not a bad thing. I do it all the time.

I have a GG 2011 ec300 with the 45 open chamber forks, for trail riding, enduro racing, they preform very well. They are not built to be motocross forks. If i turn the compression way down to run fast thru the nasty stuff they will feel harsh on big hits. I turn up the compression for most trail conditions they work great. Enduro engineering revalved my forks.

I also have a 2009 KTM 200xc with fully worked Factory Connection suspension. A very expensive set up, a very good set up. Its not any better for the type of riding/ racing I do.
Ive also ridden all of the new KTM stuff. If i thought i would be gaining any advantage on a new KTM I would buy one tomorrow. Most of the racing and riding i do is second and third gear stuff with occasional fast bursts above that. For me the Gas Gas is much better in those conditions.

[jayc]

Originally Posted by Ud_luz

When you launch off a 3 or 4 foot ledge going down hill the forks almost immediately bottom, disconcerting to say the least. I ride right off the rear fender on downhills due to this.

That's is not a valving problem. Jump landings are controlled by low-speed circuitry, and is dominated by clicker settings. Go in a few clicks on your compression clickers.

JayC

[moto9]

Originally Posted by jayc

That's is not a valving problem. Jump landings are controlled by low-speed circuitry, and is dominated by clicker settings. Go in a few clicks on your compression clickers.

JayC

I disagree, it is a valving issue...and addressed thru valving, jump landings are a high speed issue.
I think he may have too much float, along with a incorrect setup for what he rides ,,,just MHO.
It took a lot of valving changes to get the marz forks on my 08 300 to work how I want them to, I suffered through a lot of sacrificing plushness vers firmness.
When the fork was plush on the roots, it would hammer over logs, g-out and drop offs.
When I stiffened up the BV stack to compensate it was too harsh on the roots.
My first valve theory was wrong, I now know the firmness is found in the midvalve (IMHO), so I went back to the plusher BV stack and controlled the fork stroke by way of the mid valve.
The midvalve is like a paraschuite, the trick is to get it to open at the correct time...too much float would cause the fork to dive too quickly into the stroke and give a harsh feel, too little and the fork in essence would lock / deflect and again feel harsh.
So, I went with stiffer springs to get the fork to ride higher in the stroke.
Set the BV up with a 2 stage woods/lighter stack, using a 10, face shim so it would open quickly for the roots/rocks.
Then the MV I also used a 10 shim for the same reason, 2 stage stack, stiffer MV spring which also helps it ride higher in the stroke, then I limited the amount of float.
The more I tightened up the float the plusher the ride and more compliant the fork became....originally I had way too much float, I thought getting more oil to flow would make it plusher....was I wrong.
I lowered my oil level until I felt the bottoming resistance was good for what I ride.
Also I had to really stiffen up the rebound stack and I mean a lot.
After being in and out of the fork 6-8 times I am super pleased with the ride quality.

Just a note: I went thru the same thing with my CRF 250, it was great on the MX track, but I was invited out to a outdoor style track, lots of bumps and I got hammered....I had the float set at .20, I opened it to a .75 and what a difference.
My point is the right mid valve set up is cruical to a well performing fork...One of the best tuners I know said the mid valve is where the magic is found...and I agree!

[moto9]

Originally Posted by boyscout

Jump landings are controlled by slow speed valving. Rocks and roots are high speed. Backing the compression way off so that it feels good on rocks and roots will compromise the jump landings no matter what suspension you are running.

Maybe one of you engineering types can devise a magnetic ride control system so we can have it all.

Play with the clickers, ill bet you find something you like.

My Bad, I stand corrected!

[twowheels]

Originally Posted by boyscout

Jump landings are controlled by slow speed valving. Rocks and roots are high speed. Backing the compression way off so that it feels good on rocks and roots will compromise the jump landings no matter what suspension you are running.

That blanket won't cover it

Did you ever wonder why backsiding the downslope of a jump feels better than simply slapping down or flat-landing a jump? Because you're experiencing lower suspension accelerations and velocities.

In most instances, jump landings are in the high-speed compression realm, with the more talented jumpers moving that down towards low speed compression territory as they gracefully match the back side of jumps.

Rocks and roots ARE in the high-speed compression range, so unfortunately most clicker-tuning is ineffective. Your leverage on the high-speed range comes through tuning the valve stack (and other internals). Consequently how you tune for rocks and roots will have a direct effect on your jump landings.

Originally Posted by boyscout

Play with the clickers, ill bet you find something you like.

Not exactly, but you can get to pretty decent performance without too much pain if you're willing to invest in springs and work with all three of your valve stacks - compression, rebound, and mid - and dial in oil levels.

[GMP]

moto9,

I agree with you on most points, but why add a bleed shim to the MV stack? You do realize that it adds free bleed to the rebound stack, something that the fork definitely does not need. What float have you settled on? I'm at 1.2mm but could go tighter with the light MV I think. One thing I heard in a discussion once made a lot sense and stuck with me: its not the difficulty of an MVs start of movement that causes deflection or harshness, its the available travel and flex for the flows required. That stack will pop off the back of the piston real quick despite the spring tension and bleed, it must to release most of the oil to the top side of the cartridge. The real magic in the setup is getting the stack set up so that it flexes enough and will not hydro lock/limit flow during the high speed slammers, while still slowing things down a bit at lower to mid speeds.

[moto9]

Originally Posted by GMP

moto9,

I agree with you on most points, but why add a bleed shim to the MV stack? You do realize that it adds free bleed to the rebound stack, something that the fork definitely does not need. What float have you settled on? I'm at 1.2mm but could go tighter with the light MV I think. One thing I heard in a discussion once made a lot sense and stuck with me: its not the difficulty of an MVs start of movement that causes deflection or harshness, its the available travel and flex for the flows required. That stack will pop off the back of the piston real quick despite the spring tension and bleed, it must to release most of the oil to the top side of the cartridge. The real magic in the setup is getting the stack set up so that it flexes enough and will not hydro lock/limit flow during the high speed slammers, while still slowing things down a bit at lower to mid speeds.

I think you missunderstood me or I did a poor job of explaining myself...which is more likely the case
I use NO bleed shim on the mid valve or the base valve....what I ment by a 10 shim was in thickness.
I'm running just under 1mm float, but I am much faster now than I was when I first started changing things in the forks and shock.

[GMP]

OK, yes, misunderstanding. I thought you were talking about shims in order from the piston face, and the "10" a dia of bleed shim. I'm going to drop my float next time the fork is apart and try it. Planning on a '12 250 soon but I'll still race the '07 in early March as the new bike will not be setup in time or broken in. Sounds like our setups are quite similar, and since we are both fairly happy with the fork in similar terrain, it makes sense.